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If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 5, '08 10:07am PST 
Off top social foray......hi, Scooter wave I almost PM'd you about a Pit thread a week ago. Haven't "bumped" into you recently....hope all is well smile

I wanted to leap back to a post Riley made a little earlier. Now that Riley is one succinct doggie....I will de-succient Riley for just a sec just so the whys of the statement is clear. To know at least the first three generations of a dog's pedigree is an integral part of responsible breeding. This does NOT mean that you simply know their names. It means that you know of them and of their genetic integrity and propensities. Think of a stew. If you say you are going to eat a stew, well, you aren't doing that really....you are eating all the ingredients of a stew. You are eating meat and carrots and flour and onions and potatoes and whatever else. Breeding is the same way. You can say in breeding your dog you will be coming up with puppies that resemble him, but such is a short sighted view, for you will be bringing into play all the dogs before him as well, which is his genetic completeness, just as much as a stew's ingredients are. And if you don't know those ingredients....the status of littermates, full blood siblings, cousins, etc., the producing records of sires and dams, aunts, uncles, etc and their bents.....then you are not breeding responsibly, for you are breeding blind. You are serving a stew to the masses without a clue as to what is in it.

This is one area where collectives....national breed clubs most commonly, but also gaggles of like-minded individuals....are priceless. You really should not be breeding without being tied in to a collective in some way....another component of responsible breeding. It is by collective expriences shared that there will be the most knowledge, AND....quite importantly....the most rapid discoveries made about lines that are strong and others that are problematic. When you are not tied into a collective and/or do not at least have strong genetic knowledge of the immediate generations of your dogs, you are blocked from all this information.

A second issue, and one seldom mentioned here on Dogster, is the subject of genetic NICKS. This enters more into the art of breeding and knowing who to breed to whom. This is where breeding exits the world of science and enters the world of artistry. Do you know that Secretariat and Seattle Slew....two of the absolute legend racehorses in the heady '70's....stemmed from the same nick of Bold Ruler/Princequillo? Well, they did. They did not stem from the same horse or were out of the same mare. They had no immediate relatives in common, but they were from the same nick. Secteriat, who was an extremely expensive horse, from an elite farm and from very good parents, was by Bold Ruler and from a Princequillo mare, whereas Seattle Slew, who was from a minor farm from not very good parents and was an inexpensive horse, was by a grandson of Bold Ruler and his dam was sired by a grandson of Princequillo. This was several generations removed from the immediate Bold Ruler/Princequillo nick that produced Secretariat, but people repeated the nick for generations to come, as reflected in Seattle Slew. Curiously, this nick did not work as well when flipped, meaning if Princequillo was on the sire side and Bold Ruler on the dam's side, it was less effective. Big Brown, who made headlines as the Triple Crown winner of this year, represents light linebreeding to a nick that reigned some four decades ago....that of Damascus/Round Table. The dam of his sire and the third dam (Big Brown's mother's mother's mother) both were by Damascus and out of a Round Table mare.

Nicks, as evidenced, are genetically long-lived and can continue for many generations. They are liked fated lovers....when you cross these lines on each other, superior offspring tend to be the result. Conversely, some line crosses do just the opposite and produce very inferior or problematic dogs. So for those who think you breed nice dog A to nice dog B and get nice dogs? Think again.

Edited by author Fri Dec 5, '08 10:25am PST

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Daniel the- Spaniel

I'm With the- Teal Deer,- Dahlings!
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 5, '08 11:18am PST 
Tiller is a dumb dumb and posted on the wrong thread. Perhaps still informative, but I am cute and will offer you my comic relief in case this has stressed or confused you in some way smile
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Chandler

Code name:- Farmcollie
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 5, '08 12:42pm PST 
Daniel, you can tell Tiller that it's ok.
I think the post was relevant to this thread too!laugh out loud
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Scooter

Work hard; Play- harder.
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 5, '08 1:11pm PST 
Hey Tiller.wave We're ok. Mom's been down.

The one thing you forgot to add is that not only has the nick only worked one way (in the horses) but that it has had it's major downside. Bad feet/legs, especially on the fillies. Ruffian, Eight Belles and to a lesser extent2007 Belmont winner Rags to Riches all come to mind.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 5, '08 1:46pm PST 
shock Scooter, for a silly ol' Beagle, you impress laugh out loud I was a very young kid when Ruffian had her ill fated match race and I still get a pit in my stomach to hear her name. You forgot Go for Wand frown The big thing has screwed up the TB, and he is screwed up, is early retirement, which basically is Secretariat's fault as he broke trend to not race as a four year, and they only did that because because there was too much money in him to afford him losing anymore. Part of it before always was running a horse hard, long and carrying a lot of weight...THAT was when you proved yourself and were considered one of the best and were thereby availed max genetic opportunity. Now they race them so briefly, no time really to test the vigor, race day medications as well to mask the truth of the horse's physical endurance....which really is a lot as regards racehorses holding up. They don't anymore. Good example in any case of how a trend can bring havoc to a breed.

Moral in any case? Greed of money breeding animals = bad news.

Edited by author Fri Dec 5, '08 1:50pm PST

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Scooter

Work hard; Play- harder.
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 6, '08 4:44am PST 
Hey, this silly Beagle is into the horses...The human LOVES to ride and introduced me to the silly quarter horse (Still don't know what the other 3/4 is supposed to be...possibly dog since he thinks he's one) that she fell in love with last time we were home. I've even been to the track here in Seoul (and through the non-racehorse barns). It wasn't soo much that I forgot Go for Wand as I couldn't think of her name and my google-fu was weak. (It was past our bedtime).

Here's to hoping that the powers that be are a bit more selective when it comes to breeding Rags to Riches. I hate to see how her special place in history has been a bit overshadowed since Eight Belles. R2R did something that historically speaking was soo much greater.
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Orion

Will work for- cookies!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 6, '08 5:45pm PST 
ya know. wether he bred them down from dalmatians or mixed them with another breed. how do you think other breeds came to be? australian sheps and pointers were at one time bred with dalmatians. that would be why they have spots and why deafness runs in those breeds as well. have you been to his kennel? I have, a few times. was impressed with him and his house/kennel/dogs. Harper is my 3rd dal. My older dal that passed in feb 08, she was a show dog and we did see small dals at shows. like 30-40lbs. I can say first hand that he takes care of his dogs, can you? I also know other people that have adopted pups from him. they are all healthy. you act like he is breeding horrible dogs. i would rather pay good money for a healthy pup then to not know what i am getting into. learned my lesson with my Orion dog. AKC papers, but has so many health probs.
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CH ChekrdFlags Vegas GoGo Girl

All Pyr! From- pasture to show- ring!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 6, '08 5:59pm PST 
One can also do their research & pay good money for a healthy dog bred by a breeder who adheres to the breed standard & their breed club code of ethics.wave
How well one takes care of their dogs & how much they love them does not necessarily a good breeder make.wink
eta: The old, worn out argument that all breeds were mixed with some other breed to get them grows tiresome...These breeds were brought to be with a clear reason & careful consideration as to what they would be meant to do & how the breeders would get that...What purpose do Mini Dals serve?...How did possibly crossing them & breeding them to be smaller help to better achieve this purpose?shrug
B.t.w., There are many many breeds who are ancient & have remained pure & relatively unchanged throughout time...One of the reasons I chose Pyrs...Just an f.y.i.
big grin

Edited by author Sat Dec 6, '08 6:06pm PST

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Orion

Will work for- cookies!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 6, '08 6:09pm PST 
I agree, but dont knock someone for breeding healthy pups. Harper has the dalmatian personality to. dont be so judgmental. alot of people pay alot of money for breeds they want.
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Orion

Will work for- cookies!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 6, '08 6:15pm PST 
oh and a response to what purpose do they serve? OMG r u kidding? they are pets like ALL other dogs, is that not good enough? I know what you are asking, each breed had a purpose, working dogs, hounds, non-sporting etc..
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