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Dog to Dog Corrections

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 12:47pm PST 
I wasn't even talking about Ali....it was the poster (who is a trainer) who cited her, not me....but rather the speak that one bad experience can ruin a dog. It can be important to say, but never important to stress. As that can lead to the conclusion Tonka had. As noted, sorta of confused me why someone who would cite Ali Brown as her mentor would dump a puppy on the "certainty" that it would turn fear aggressive....makes no sense, wouldn't have been Ali's call by a long shot from what I know....but certainly her feeling that one bad experience can ruin a puppy spurred her on to make her decision. To say a bad experience can ruin a dog can have fallout. In this case, a poor puppy in peril being returned to the last place she should have gone.

That's all there in the Tonka thread for anyone to see. It's nothing I am saying, only something I am repeating.

It's like anything....just as there are corrections people who interpret everything the wrong way, there are R people who do just the same. And this was a perfect example of someone who had no appreciation whatsoever for a dog's resiliency.

I personally would not intervene on an impending correction if the scene was in normal range. The giving and receiving of correction is perfectly normal dog behavior. If the dog is not balanced, different story. That's up to the owner to know. And for those with balanced dogs to never forget that no one can teach a dog to be a dog better than a dog. Corrections are normal. If they send some dog over the top, there were underlying problems to start with.

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 12:55pm PST

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Trixie Bean!

none so blind as- those that will- not see
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 12:53pm PST 
Yes but Smokey, nobody is really talking about allowing their dog to be pestered- If you *do* allow your dogs to use fair corrections/be corrected fairly then if you have the slightest bit of a brain in your head you know that, if the other dog hasnt listened after a couple of corrections then you intervene.. shrug


Im currently living with my grandma, Trixie and her pain in the butt 10 month old Pomeranian cross. For the first few days Abbie was pestering Trixie and Trix was putting up with it.. WE were stepping in, "saving the day" and removing Abbie from the situation. That was their interaction- either they ignored each other, or Abbie pestered. One day, Abbie started at it again and Trix decided for whatever reason that it was time to correct Abs. And it was like a switch was turned on. She STOPPED annoying Trix as much because she had learned her boundaries and ever since they have been the best of friends. They will play together, lie on the couch together, even share a food bowl laugh out loud. If Trix never had the chance to give the correction I am fairly sure that we would have to micromanage the dogs and their relationship wouldnt have developed so well.



ETA: I am currently working short term for a doggie day care.. If we removed dogs from the situation every tiem a correction was given then there would hardly be a point in allowing the dogs together at all, as corrections are given on a frequent basis by other dogs.. And the puppies that have grown up in the place (some are in there 5-6 days a week) are the best dogs ive ever seen around other dogs.. And there are a fair few, the day care has been open for 4 years and a LOT of the regulars basically grew up in the place. If corrections are such a problem then surely all these dogs would be an absolute mess laugh out loud

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 1:13pm PST

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 1:08pm PST 
Exactly. There have been plenty of times I've looked over at a pup harassing a dog and said "oh, you're really about to get it" laugh out loud If after he does there is no change, that's a lot of info flooding in and then you intervene. It's not about being blind, but being realistic that dogs can teach dogs proper dog boundaries better than we ever could. They have sophisticated communication, only part of which we understand and even less what we can convey. When it is not working as we know it should, we step in.

There was a very interesting study....there is a short video somewhere, and also a peer reviewed paper....of dogs who were presented with a bone in a bowl with a speaker nearby. Three growls were played....a play growl, a territorial defense growl (against a stranger), and a "get the *f* away from my bone" growl. Although the latter two growls were not different to the human ear, the dogs could perceive the differences, and there was a strikingly different response from the dogs. The stranger warning growl did not frustrate the dogs off a bone, but the correct growl for the situation did.

If one of my dogs wants to say "go away"....he is truly saying that. If that is ignored and there is consequence to follow, that is how dogs learn. They can learn other ways, but they will not learn the same thing, which perhaps in future will come up in dog interactions. With some dogs, the span between a growl and a bite is three seconds. Balanced dogs. Kerry Blues. 1.5, .75? laugh out loud That's still enough time for the dog to talk back, "oh, ok!," which would not be language a less experienced dog may have. We owe them to perfect their dog social skills when it can be afforded. We cannot always be right there. Our dogs have to trust us, yes, but we have to trust them as well.

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 1:09pm PST

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Tyler

Whippy- The- Whipador
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 1:11pm PST 
Just to reference some of the points being made here and there about micromanaging every little thing in our dogs lives etc. That's not the case in my situation at all. As i said some corrections are warranted, for example, like Risa was saying, Ty doesn't appreciate being body slammed by his friend Molly. She will charge at him full speed and take him totally unawares, sending poor Ty sprawling across the ground. In these situations he's doing the job we signed up for - teaching Molly better manners.

But i think in some instances, having Missy the way she is, i guess i feel things might escalate if left to their own devices. Missy is the type of dog that one correction given to her and she will retaliate. Before some of her DA issues she was also a big correcter of other dogs herself and to be honest at the time i was never 100% what was normal and what wasn't. But at the same time i'm very laid back when it comes to dogs out and about on walks getting snarky or whatever. In that sense i do let the dogs get on with it as long as no aggression is being shown, and i'm really not the type of person to step in and keep other dogs away from mine or react at the slightest growl or snap etc.
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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 1:24pm PST 
"People can cite whatever they want. There is no way to ensure that small-minded people don't pick up a few buzzwords and completely ignore the meaning behind them."

laugh out loudlaugh out loudlaugh out loud Boy, is that ever the truth!
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 1:58pm PST 
"Just to reference some of the points being made here and there about micromanaging every little thing in our dogs lives etc. That's not the case in my situation at all."

I so totally know that, Ty! I laughed reading that sentence, because it makes me reflect and if that HAD been the case I would have been having a heart attack with the breed you are migrating to laugh out loud I think you'll do just fine. Surely we don't agree on everything wink, but you are a very sound thinker who from the first seems to really recognize the individual qualities of your pups and to be very commonsense. Certainly for dogs who will mature to be very responsible and take charge, they need a lot of ground work as puppies...lots of exposure, experience and guidance....and I have total trust in you. That and I know you are out and about with your dogs a great deal. It's all good to me! smile I am losing no sleep whatsoever with that pairing.

It's that looking at the individual and doing what is best. I don't think it's good to have a rule that hear a growl and scoop up the puppy. I don't think it's good to have ANY x x=y with dogs as there are so many shades. If D'Ar is continuing to chew his bone...not stopping, not speeding up, etc.....and does an air snap in follow up, this is a conversation. It's perfectly within normal lines and contained. You certainly intervene if there are dynamics you know of, or marked signs of tension, etc., but if dogs are having a normal conversation, they have the right to have it. Particularly with a puppy involved who is going through a normal learning process. This is just normal dog behavior. Puppies test limits, find out where they are by other dogs laying down those boundaries. Sometimes the dynamics occur where that's just not going well or isn't functional enough, and then you intervene. Frankly, I'd intervene a lot faster on a dog putting up with puppy madness just because he's too much of a gentle soul and I feel sorry for him. There's no real learning and the poor elder is a punching bag. Even if there's no growl, sometimes enough is enough wink

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 2:08pm PST

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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 2:17pm PST 
Shadow used to get in moods were she would relentlessly pester Sabi. I could redirect until the cows came home but she would ultimately go back to Sabs and here is what I noted, if I stepped in Sabi would come to where I put Shadow and become a target again, on purpose. Sabi was telling ME in very clear terms 'back off, I've got this!' because me redirecting was dragging out the lesson. I had choices, I could continue to interfere or I could trust that my steady, proven dog had the innate knowledge to raise a pup. My spayed female who has never raised a pup of her own has taught countless pups proper behavior. I have watched her growl, snap, nip and sometimes get pretty nasty sounding, I have never seen her cause injury or be excessive and all of the pups(except Shadow) have grown into steady, confidant socially adept dogs.
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Tyler

Whippy- The- Whipador
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 2:28pm PST 
Thanks Tiller! I actually wasn't referring to anything you'd said. It was from an earlier post by a guest poster. My two rarely, if ever, issue corrections to each other. It will be interesting to see how the puppy will fit in and whether my two will tell him off or look to me to intervene. I think it's clear if the puppy gets too rambunctious and body slams Ty, Ty is going to have words wink but in general i can't see my two doing much telling off and like you said, i'm not willing to allow Ty ( or Missy for that matter, but she can handle herself better ), be a punch bag for the new pup because Ty is to gentle and laid back to tell him off himself. But we shall see i guess! wink
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Shane DEC- '08-JAN '12- RIP

In dreams I walk- with you..
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 2:46pm PST 
Just wanted to point out that this thread is a fascinating study in people giving and receiving corrections. Most of it good and useful communication, some just unwarranted snark. All of it enlightening and affirming. Carry on! smile
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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 3:13pm PST 
Just something to think about... a "normal" puppy learns to deal with being corrected gradually from his mother and littermates.
WHEN THIS LEARNING IS NOT PRESENT OR IS INTERRUPTED is when, I believe, that an older puppy or even adult dog CAN be permanently scarred by corrections from another dog.
Sadly, in todays world, far too many puppies are not allowed to learn from their mother and littermates... leaving the litter too soon is the biggest problem, but we also have orphan and singleton pups (I am dealing with a 10 week old orphan/singleton right now), and, we have over zealous owners who freak out at the first sign of momma dog growling at her baby OR littermates fighting and separate them before they learn anything.
It is not fair, IMO, to allow one of these puppies to either attempt to correct an adult dog OR receive a rough correction from same adult dog, they just do not have the life experience to handle it.

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 3:18pm PST

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