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Dog to Dog Corrections

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Jackson Tan

Lad about town		 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 14, '13 7:28pm PST 
lol, not from me you won't, Toto. My entire male is a firm but fair disciplinarian of pups and gentle as hell. I think I'd trust him over some of the bitchy females I've met too. laugh out loud He's got it in him to play the fatherly figure, lol.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 7:40am PST 
"A puppy can learn just as effectively from ignoring a growl leading to a timeout"

That's not true....those are two totally different lessons. Learning, yes, but certainly not learning the same thing in any regard. A puppy will not learn how to adjust to social stress. He may learn to modulate pesty behavior (maybe) but he will not (certainly) learn the function of the exercise of social education, meaning in future if challenged by another dog and you are not right there, he, deprived of the social experience that this is normal, may react out of fear.

Strongly disagree. Maybe YOUR dog learned not to cope with social stress, maybe your dog was prone to these behaviors genetically and maybe your dog reacted the way he did due to that single event and would have reacted that way no matter what the past. Correlation does not imply causation.

I have had plenty of puppies who never received "corrections" from adults that have turned out well. OTOH, I have also seen plenty of dogs whose owners relaxed vigilance for that one instant and wound up with a dog with issues. Single event learning DOES occur.

Personally, i never want either my dogs or the puppies I teach or foster to learn that they need to take things into their own hands. Puppies need to learn to chill and relax on cue. Adult dogs need to learn to trust me. I have seen far too many cases where allowing something like this to continue (if both dogs live in the same household) results in dogs that fight.

Further, this was not simply a case of puppy play getting out of hand. This was a puppy being allowed to harass and dog till the dog decided to take matters into his own hands.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 10:04am PST 
Asher, in this context "my" dog is a summary of thirty five years worth of mentorship with eight or nine breeders who amount to a phenomenal mass of dogs...I could not even hazard to count....with dogs of six different breeds. I am just passing info on. This in addition to science based knowledge on optimal puppy raising.

********Puppies are corrected relentlessly by mom and their littermates. ALL puppies have been corrected.******* So aside from singletons, no, you have not seen puppies raised without corrections.

And it is sound. In terms of my personal dog experiences, the one dog I had who grew up uncorrected by other dogs as a pup after weaning had a melt down when at age five or six he was corrected by a dog. As for before weaning, I picked him because he was the most brassy pup in the litter, so the rate of correction prior to me taking him is only a guess, and from his attitude from the day I took him onward, could not possibly have been corrected anything but minimally.

Amongst other dogs, the primary way dogs learn boundaries during their critical formative period, aka impulse control, is through correction.

Puppy learning differs from adult learning.

Edited by author Tue Jan 15, '13 10:13am PST

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Member Since
12/31/1969		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 10:17am PST 
live/mentor with a breeder who has litters on the ground and has other adult dogs, some half related, some unrelated, and tell me if they do not correct puppies.

that is basically the life of a puppy, to get corrected by their parents and older peers.

ETA: it is also interesting to mentor with a breeder who has kept a pup and that pup is growing up (skipping the separation at around 10 weeks to go to their new human home) around their parents and around adults or sub-adults.

maybe it is some people's need to feel like they can manage everything in their dogs' life and that their dog should always defer to them, but that is certainly not the opinion of everyone. i for one do allow the dogs a large degree of autonomy in handling their relationships, ESPECIALLY those relationships which exist between them and the other dogs with whom they live.

Edited by author Tue Jan 15, '13 10:22am PST

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 10:26am PST 
Best socialized dogs I have ever had, and coincidentally the most DA prone breed I have ever owned/raised myself, were kept in that situation, Guest. Tiller's breeder does not wean until age four months and lets them run with unrelated adults. My two Giants from her have been intact males as adults with extreme composure around other dogs and who have been ultra tolerant around the fosters. Totally agree with what you are saying. That to me is optimal....not just mom/litter, but unrelated adults (meaning not mom) as well.

This is the *fundamental* way puppies learn impulse control and, second only to wrestling for teats when young, the ability to deal with social stress.

In terms of adults and puppy harrassment, again, puppy conflicts vs adult conflicts play out differently. Puppies do not fight adults, whereas in adult conflicts things may come to blows. Well adjusted dogs know this. You can't view these social experiences on the same platform. There is innate social knowledge and extreme body language on the puppy's part.

Edited by author Tue Jan 15, '13 10:45am PST

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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 10:41am PST 
Pardon the double posting......confused

Edited by author Tue Jan 15, '13 10:47am PST

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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 10:46am PST 
"Puppies are corrected relentlessly by mom and their littermates. ALL puppies have been corrected."

This is nothing other than common sense, and hopefully those that are truly involved in what's best for a dog realize it. Dogs are MUCH better at knowing & communicating canine social skills in general than humans are - and as a result, they are MUCH better at teaching puppies basic dog to dog interactions than any human - just stands to reason. To interfere with this intentionally is to facilitate the creation of an unbalanced, socially maladaptive adult.

Edited by author Tue Jan 15, '13 10:50am PST

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Sanka

The ground is my- newspaper.		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 11:17am PST 
Personally, i never want either my dogs or the puppies I teach or foster to learn that they need to take things into their own hands.

Umm...so you don't want them to ever know how to interact with each other? Know the other's limits? Learn which dog is more playful and which turns into a grump? They have to all go through you and you tell them what to do?

Sounds like quite the extra unnecessary step to me.

Certainly, there are times where it may be best to step in, but for something like what was presented in the op? We know dogs can learn a billion tricks of all calibers, but we can't trust them on interacting with their own breed because it may be a bit stressful?shrug
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 12:23pm PST 
Part of life, part of experience, part of GROWTH, is some degree of stress. Not life changing get mugged on a street corner stress, but some degree of stress. I had a gun held to my face once, and that was extremely not pleasant. But that said, all my years in NYC of feeling uncomfortable in the subway with a very odd person and just needing to hold it together, is what gave me the nerves to stay calm and emerge unscathed when a serious situation presented itself. This is learning. There are levels of stress where you do not learn, but there are levels where one profoundly learns.

There is scientific evidence that stress handling at an early age (five weeks or less) makes puppies not only better adapted adults, but that they have a better capacity to LEARN, this done by scientific experiments which yielded, to quote Dr. Michael Fox, "develops dogs which are superior when put in learning or competitive situations. They are better able to handle stress, are more outgoing and learn more quickly. Mild physical stress at an early age will actually increase the size of the brain." That's phenomenal.

It is also well documented, although to the best of my knowledge not officially studied scientifically outside of a fear imprint focus, that keeping puppies with their littermates and mother longer, part of which means within an era where there is a lot more competition, combat and scolding, yields far more well adapted adults. In my personal experience, adding unrelated adults into the mix only increases their social and stress handling capacities as adults.

Protecting your puppy from stress is not protecting your puppy. Socialization itself is part stress. If all you do is condition to accept, stress free, then you are interrupting the dog developing good capacity to weather stress. You are interrupting a critical learning function.
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Member Since
12/31/1969		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 12:30pm PST 
to add, much of what people think is harmless fun wrestling and playing among puppies, is also stressful to some degree and at its basis a form of competition and practice.
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