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Dogs & Hunting

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 10:30am PST 
I'm very interested in this discussion. From what I remember of "Merle's Door," the author used Merle to spot elk only. Was that fair?

A few bear are hunted up here in Maine, where there is a sufficient population.
Moose are hunted here in VT, with a lottery system, so it is only a few.
Coyotes and coywolves (it is thought) are a problem, and I personally think traps are cruel and dangerous to other animals.
Dogs are used on none of these animals.

I love to get game from friends, and know several people who only eat meat which they have shot.

I myself try to stick to natural, pastured meat.

I grew up with a father who hunted birds with dogs, and I find that way of hunting not only fair, but an elegant legacy to continue.

As I am originally from Florida, I find the use of hog dogs ethical, as long as the dogs are bred ethically and protected with kevlar vests. I know a few hog hunters, some of whom use dogs and some of whom don't.

I'm not sure of my views on treeing dogs, although I love their looks and their heritage. My father, as a teenager, kept a pack of treeing walkers, blue ticks, and redbones. He also kept a raccoon as a pet, oddly enough. It of course became incorrigible as an adolescent. He taught me to appreciated the lovely voices of hounds.

Although I don't hunt -- among other things, mother thought it was too "masculine" (ugh!) to learn, and I have an accomodation error with my eyesight, I would love to get an AKC hunting title on my next Golden Retriever, where someone else does the shooting for you, if you wish.

I hope this discussion can be continued, without any animosity.smile
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 12:05pm PST 
@ Bon Temps "Believe it or not, there's a group worse that that - those are the ones that just cull the litter, with no second thoughts. They might wait until the puppies are 6 weeks old, then take out what they think are the best ones & cull the rest. Really......unpleasant."

That's an interesting subject. Not a comfortable one and I gather would put a lot of Dogsters in a tizzy.

There actually was a kennel worker at that same shelter I referred to that bred working 'houlas. She would cull too. A little odd to have a kennel worker....and she was one of the better ones, very good with the dogs....breeding dogs, but she wasn't breeding pets. She was breeding workers. And was very proud that no puppy of hers would ever be brought to a shelter. She culled.

A lot of working breeders do. I dealt with a dual breeding GSP man....one of the few to have the blacks, and he was extremely helpful to me in helping to i.d. a pair of dogs that showed up, allowing me to alert GSP rescue. He culled also. A very extensive puppy tester, he'd do lots of drive and character testing (balls, guns, etc.) and also assess for type as his stock were shown in conformation, too. And if he had a less stable puppy, it was culled.

The truth of the matter is....and this is a "hot" topic, a little hard for dog lovers to touch.....that a lot of breeders breed for work. That's why they breed dogs. And with that mindset, a lot of people, particularly the shelter community, feel in those cases culling is the responsible thing to do. Vs having a shelter deal with your problem, as of course then the puppies take up kennel space, killing other dogs, and no one in the region I cover would go to a shelter to get a 'houla puppy. They are everywhere, for like fifty bucks. The situation is impossible.

Of course, the only true ideal is to do it as the show breeders do and have a pet market. But that is TOUGH for work bred dogs. Tougher still in heavily 'houla'd regions. Same holds for the coonhound breeders. Hard to have that pet market. Hard to see any value in puppies not showing promise as workers.

There is no answer. I know there is a good end of your hog dog community (and no, I have no problem with hunting the ferals by whatever means necessary....Australia has even a more profound problem with cats, who have decimated species, as well as things like hogs, who are an environmental disaster on that landscape), but it's just one of those things where the good guys have to be willing to stir their pot and out the bad ones, as they earn everyone a poor reputation.
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Dylan aka- Dilly

frisbee- s rule
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 2:52pm PST 
my foster sister bred/showed GSD when I was a teenager. the owner of the stud she used made her sign a contract if her bitch ever threw a white pup, it wouldnt take a second breath. her stud sometimes would if the bitch genes carried the factor. and the stud owner didnt want it to ever show up on the pedigree.

I have issuses with this. if the genes are flawed, dont breed.
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Sanka- I'll Miss- You

The ground is my- newspaper.
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 4:32pm PST 
It does make one think though, should such dogs be kept as a breed if their main purpose is completely banned? Is it right to breed a dog down from what it once was to create just a "pet" version as the need for such drive isn't needed nor wanted from pet owners?

I mean, hounds in particular just really stick out in that realm to me.

A guy at the dog park used to bring his 2 black mouth curs. They were working dogs bred from working lines. Those dogs, good god, I don't see how anyone could peacefully be inside with those 2. Well trained, but when instincts took over, watch out!
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Bon Temps

Super hard robot- puma dog
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 6:37pm PST 
"That's an interesting subject. Not a comfortable one and I gather would put a lot of Dogsters in a tizzy."

Yes, it is. The question becomes a little more murky when you start considering all sides of the equation....
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 8:16pm PST 
It's a funky time. Purposes exist for dogs and dogs are purpose bred. All bets are off, though, in terms of standards applied to the dog fancy itself and what Joe Q Public is instructed to ethically look for.

I don't know where the future lies in any of it. I don't want to be a hypocrite....I am very abraded by breeders who will euth a healthy puppy for the wrong color. At the same time, breeding with the pet population in mind can water a breed down, which I can understand would be a concern for working folk, but that inevitably leaves them with pups they consider useless. Don't really know the answer. A lot of working breeders don't health test much, either, which in terms of basic dog education would be point number one in identifying a good breeder. They of course know which lines produce sound workers and that's good enough for them. It's a different ethic.

@ Sanka, the basic dog fancy is populated by breeds whose use has come and gone.We don't (or shouldn't) engage in Pit fighting anymore, the Mastiff was a dog of war, turnspit dogs and so on. Bull Terriers, Mastiffs, Great Danes, etc. all are outmoded breeds things got outdated on, but were preserved. So whether you agree or don't agree, it still remains the sort of thing has gone on for a century.
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Kye

I'm like- Einstein only- hairier.
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 8:21pm PST 
*facepaw* I totally did forget to address the actual issue in this post didn't I? Kinda scatterbrained lately haha, re-reading my post I'm confused as well. Many apologies!!

I disagree with any "hunting" that either shoots caged animals (canned hunts, hunting of retired zoo animals, etc.) hunting from a hidden shelter where the prey animal has no idea you're even there or any practice that creates waste from game animals (not using all the parts) or hunting of animals that do not have explosive populations or animals that have little known about population. I'm not a huge fan of hunting predators for sport either.

I DO actually agree with deer hunting as long as it's done in a sportsmanlike manner, as in not throwing out food and waiting for the deer to walk blindly into your bullets, and all parts of the animal are used.

That being said I agree with using hunting dogs as long as the dogs are well cared for and are in the least amount of danger possible and the animal being hunted isn't toyed with or tortured before being killed. A lot of great dog breeds out there were bred solely for the purpose of hunting game and it's part of their instinctual nature to do so. I bet if a Beagle living in the city was able to trail game once a week he'd be a happier dog because he is able to fulfill the drive to do what his breed has been honed to do for generations. The deer, raccoon, boar or any other game animal may not appreciate it but I personally do not see anything wrong with it.

** Had to add**
Just read Tiller's post above me about dogs being bred down from working to pets:
"Sanka, the basic dog fancy is populated by breeds whose use has come and gone.We don't (or shouldn't) engage in Pit fighting anymore, the Mastiff was a dog of war, turnspit dogs and so on. Bull Terriers, Mastiffs, Great Danes, etc. all are outmoded breeds things got outdated on, but were preserved. So whether you agree or don't agree, it still remains the sort of thing has gone on for a century."

I do agree with some points in Tiller's statement, Pit fighting is most definitely abhorrent and should not be continued but I do believe that the breeds being outmoded will eventually undergo changes (some subtle, some not) that will set them apart from the original breed in the future. Similar to how we have bred English Bulldogs to have less leg than their ancestors, or the Neapolitan Mastiff to have more wrinkles, the dogs of the future will have to adapt to being less driven by instincts. Domestication combined with selective breeding often have strange results if looked at in a long term point of view.

Edited by author Fri Jan 4, '13 8:32pm PST

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Bon Temps

Super hard robot- puma dog
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 8:52pm PST 
"BT - psychoanalysists would argue you can't taste something you staunchly deny could be there."

Psychoanalysts? Pfffftt! We psychotherapists would say they have mommy issues. laugh out loud
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Member Since
12/31/1969
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 9:13pm PST 
"Sanka, the basic dog fancy is populated by breeds whose use has come and gone.We don't (or shouldn't) engage in Pit fighting anymore, the Mastiff was a dog of war, turnspit dogs and so on. Bull Terriers, Mastiffs, Great Danes, etc. all are outmoded breeds things got outdated on, but were preserved. So whether you agree or don't agree, it still remains the sort of thing has gone on for a century."

and Tiller can skin me, but I agree that dog breeds can be let to go extinct in the same way silenced
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 9:39pm PST 
I am not going to skin anyone laugh out loud Not defending, just sayin' wink Many breeds that survived to petdom were a love affair for one person or a select group of individuals. Plenty of other breeds died off (some tragically, IMO, being foundational to a number of other breeds who made it), and then there is the freaky deaky stuff Kye was referring to. But it's less the matter of a system and more that of individuals getting inspired and turning a breed into their hobby and passion.

What has shifted in the interim, that ups the heat, is that dogs are our family members now. That's the main shift. When I was a kid, back in the 70's, if you had said you were your dog's mommie, the room would have gone dead silent and everyone would have shifted a chair away from you laugh out loud

Now it's different. Pet is the number one role and identity. What used to be cool....and that includes dropping your "bad dog" off at shelter and trying again, so it ain't all bad....just isn't cool anymore. These sentiments have brought a better life for many dogs, but will bear down on other areas where dogs are used. The backyard breeder of today is the dog culler of tomorrow, given time.

Edited by author Fri Jan 4, '13 9:42pm PST

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