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Dogs & Hunting

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Dylan aka- Dilly

frisbee- s rule
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 2:30am PST 
Charlie, I would like to see bans on those types of hunting dogs too.
seems hounds get the short end of the chain, so to speak.
bird dogs are not usually kept that way. at least not around here
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Sanka- I'll Miss- You

The ground is my- newspaper.
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 6:55am PST 
I get what you all are saying, but I just can't seem to fully agree. Sure, many hounds aren't well taken care of, but banning the "sport" isn't always the answer. Plenty of dog sledders don't take care of their dogs, but we shouldn't just ban that. And we can't go banning everything left and right because there's an aspect of danger to it for the dogs.

I would think it quite fun to hunt with dogs. Actually, watching videos of such hunts is quite entertaining. So no, I don't think any fun is taken out of it.

For an animal like a deer, I just don't see how terribly stressful it'd be compared to anything else. If I step on a stick 100 yards away, they bolt. They're quite used to it. They're meant to be prayed upon.

Bear and bobcats, that's a bit of a different matter. I don't like that aspect as much as they're hunters and not used to being hunted.

I know it isn't the popular train of thought here, but I still see it a bit hypocritical to laugh at dogs chasing rabbits and squirrels but scowl at them chasing deer.

On a side note, I know you all would enjoy this video.
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Trigger

*Blackdog*
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 7:07am PST 
I have never seen many hounds around here, save for Beagles. The way the majority are kept here is just as bad. I can't tell you how many people I've seen try to turn them into apartment dogs and then ditch them off when they tear up the place from being bored and won't stop baying at the neighbors. They have no job. No exercise. No training. And people seriously wonder why that doesn't work. Imho it's just about as bad as keeping them penned and chained up, only difference is having opportunities to be destructive in the home leaves them subject to angry owners who can then further abuse them.....

Around here pointers and retrievers are the most frequently neglected and discarded. I think mainly because people do no research and then get them thinking they are your run of the mill lap dog breeds. Every one has one and they're cute as puppies/beautiful as adults, so why not??! The mentality of "I can MAKE this dog what I want it to be, and if I put absolutely nothing into it it will still turn out GREAT!" runs rampant.

......and then they end up with quite the shock.

Most then blame the dog. They're too wild (for absolutely no reason), too stupid (again for no reason) the breeder was crap (often times they are because along with anyone and everyone trying to own one, anyone and everyone also then tries to breed them!). They take absolutely no responsibility for the state of their situation and it drives me bonkers. confused

With the exception of those who actually hunt with them pretty much everyone else I know who owns one keeps them outside. They feed them and that's about it. Most live in filth and are never taken out or given any attention because they are completely out of control.


I really do think it's a plight most working/sporting breeds face. Their qualities attract even the most unsavory of owners, and that's where you end up with the horror stories. It can happen to any breed, but those who have stand out talents are particularly susceptible.


To tie that back into the topic.....I don't think those individuals should dictate whether certain sports are banned. I do like the point made about there being little correlation between the training and relationship an owner has with a dog to accomplish a job together, as opposed to just letting a near feral dog loose to do what it's naturally inclined to do. I agree that in terms of a domesticated pet, that should be entirely the point.

If you have a pest, like hogs or rabbits or raccoons, by all means do what needs to be done. I just disagree that you need dogs to accomplish the task when there are other more humane ways to accomplish the task. (Traps I'll concede depending on how illusive the critter tends to be but I still don't like them personally after seeing how pocket gophers and coyotes can suffer in them.......).



(As an aside - I've had bear a handful of times and was NOT impressed. I've never heard of anyone harvesting them for the sole purpose of filling their freezer. I've never heard of anyone eating big cats either. People are typically after a mount or pelt if they're taking one of those (farmers probably being the only exception). As far as I know most are protected and it's against the law to shoot them, even if they're literally in the process of taking cattle or your family pet. I've never heard of tags being issued for conservation sake, at least around here. We've caught a cougar on one of our trail cameras as well as several bear (one sow with cubs!) and I'm not going to lie, at certain times of the year I about pee myself when fear heading back from stand in the dark worrying what I might run into.....ever near step diresctly on a pheasant that flushes up in your face when you're already that level of terrified??! eek You will need to change your pants when you get back.....)
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Trigger

*Blackdog*
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 7:51am PST 
"I would think it quite fun to hunt with dogs. Actually, watching videos of such hunts is quite entertaining. So no, I don't think any fun is taken out of it."

I would argue that hunting *with* dogs is an entirely different animal than releasing a dog to run miles away from you, to corner an animal for you, and then doing the work of holding it there until someone with a gun and possibly no skill can simply come up on it and shoot it.

Seeing a terrified coon up a tree with no escape? Seeing a hog surrounded by a pack of dogs with the only choice being to kill or be killed? And it's not like dog comes up on prey and boom, the deed is done. Often times they have to hold them for quite a duration of time until the hunter can get up to the ruckus, and the critter is what at that point....having a latte biding it's time? There is no normal predator sequence in nature that takes that amount of time to dispatch the prey. It's got to be just an awful stretch for the animal doomed to die.

I cannot personally see how anyone could stomach such a thing and I'd venture to say someone would HAVE to see some appeal or fun in it to ever partake in such a thing otherwise what would be the point?



"For an animal like a deer, I just don't see how terribly stressful it'd be compared to anything else. If I step on a stick 100 yards away, they bolt. They're quite used to it. They're meant to be prayed upon."

Preyed upon sure, but not like that.

Domesticated dogs do not "hunt" like other feral predators. And stepping on a stick that startles doesn't by a long shot elicit the same response being pursued does. It all depends on what is organic to a deer's environment. If people are, then they won't fear people at all whether they step on sticks or sound off blow horns or not. A perfect example of this.....we have three big enclosed stands. Under one, which is quite tall, we had set one of those plastic patio chairs so we could step up and then hoist onto the beams holding the stand up to get into it. The chair there became organic and deer would come up to and around it by the stand without so much as a second glance over time. This past summer we got almost no rain. I'm not exaggerating. One of our food plots is set near the biggest pond we have and the deer were obviously visiting the water source more frequently. We choose rape and turnips there hoping the deer would graze the rape giving the turnips time to root. Unfortunately, not only were they vying for the water source, but upon passing were clearing every sprout and shoot and then were taking the tops off the immature turnips destroying the plot entirely. Our solution? Position that one white chair right in the middle of the plot. Worked like a charm. Why? Because despite the fact that the deer had grown accustomed to seeing that chair not 200 yards away, it was new *there* and that was enough to perceive it as a potentially new threat. Took several weeks to come to the conclusion that it wasn't a threat for them to return despite the additional lure of the water source. At that point the plot was flourishing and functioned as we intended.

My point is, just because a prey animal is used to one perceived threat, doesn't mean they'll associate in the same way to another. It is quite probable that while being pursued by a coyote can become quite routine, being pursued by a domesticated dog would be entirely more harrowing because of all the differences between the two.

It's why deer will often come up into yards with dogs in them to graze on garden fare, while fleeing from them on their own turf. Different environment, different set of circumstances, different intent. I do whole heartedly believe they are smart enough to tell the difference and most of that is based entirely on previous experience.



"Bear and bobcats, that's a bit of a different matter. I don't like that aspect as much as they're hunters and not used to being hunted."

Predator hunting entails human hunter being hunted, not the other way around wink

Edited by author Thu Jan 3, '13 8:01am PST

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Dylan aka- Dilly

frisbee- s rule
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 8:49am PST 
I have to laugh about the chair. they do indeed learn such things.
there was a wild turkey that has raised her young here 3 summers in a row. I looked out to check on my dogs, and my collie bryce was sitting in the far corner watching something, so I walked out to see, and here was the momma, not 5 feet away on the outside of the fence, letting her brood eat the fallen crab apples. she knew the dogs were contained. in the winter, I started throwing some feed out for them. I could get within 15 feet of the old momma before she would get nervous.once after a very heavy snow, I looked out the window to see a flock of at least 2 dozen turkeys heading down the driveway, with momma in the lead, she knew where to find food
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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 11:26am PST 
Trigger.. I can fully agree with everything you said.

There absolutely are people who hole up their dogs in their apartments, with no training, exercise, or job and the dogs get bored and destructive, then get abused for the behavior. My Beagle doesn't have a job, no, but he does get exercise and is well trained, and I often throw him on his long line out in the field and let him track the scent of grouse because he absolutely loves it, gets to baying with his nose stuck to the ground and all.

That said, I don't think there's ANY excuse to abuse or neglect ANY dog no matter what the dog is being used for - job or pet.

I can totally agree with you on all your points, however.
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Sanka- I'll Miss- You

The ground is my- newspaper.
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 11:42am PST 
I just disagree that you need dogs to accomplish the task when there are other more humane ways to accomplish the task.

Not trying to be picky, but I never said you NEED dogs. You technically don't need guns either, but we'll just leave it be.

I would argue that hunting *with* dogs is an entirely different animal than releasing a dog to run miles away from you, to corner an animal for you, and then doing the work of holding it there until someone with a gun and possibly no skill can simply come up on it and shoot it.

I've seen that with hogs, but not with deer. No dog can corner a deer in the wild. And if it's a hound, it most likely isn't even going to try.

Don't know why the diss on "skill." I could sit in a stand and kill a deer with a shotgun easily, and it's easy to say that I don't have any skill with guns.

Seeing a terrified coon up a tree with no escape? Seeing a hog surrounded by a pack of dogs with the only choice being to kill or be killed?

Nature's not forgiving is all I can say. Hunting, no matter how you spin it, is never sympathetic either. You can try to make it sound like deer shot with guns and bows always die on the spot happy as a clam, but that's not realistic.

There is no normal predator sequence in nature that takes that amount of time to dispatch the prey. It's got to be just an awful stretch for the animal doomed to die.

I suggest you watch some old Wild Kingdom documentaries. Animals are quite often eaten while still alive. I really don't get how you, as a hunter, keep perceiving nature to be so forgiving. It can take quite a long time for animals to dispatch prey. I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy for them to be preyed upon by hyenas. Bears rip the flesh right off of fish swept right out of the river. Let's not kid ourselves, life is brutal.

Nobody likes seeing it. The same as how one could argue how anyone could stomach killing anything via any method. You can turn it whatever way you want. It's never fun to see an animal killed. But we aren't made to live forever either.

My point is, just because a prey animal is used to one perceived threat, doesn't mean they'll associate in the same way to another. It is quite probable that while being pursued by a coyote can become quite routine, being pursued by a domesticated dog would be entirely more harrowing because of all the differences between the two.

You say you don't let your dogs run on deer, but I have and do. The deer aren't scared out of their minds. If anything, they just jog/bounce away, not even a full run when my dog goes after them, barking away. They'll be a mile away in no time. Stop and turn more in a huff than anything else. If a deer is used to humans, it's used to barking dogs. And a deer is used to being chased. They don't look at what's chasing them or think "hmm, that's different", they just go. Same with rabbits, squirrels, coons, etc. Why deer are held to such a high standard is beyond me. They can tell the difference between different animals, sure, but when they feel threatened, it doesn't much matter as the reaction is always the same...get away.
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Trigger

*Blackdog*
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 2:01pm PST 
"Not trying to be picky, but I never said you NEED dogs. You technically don't need guns either, but we'll just leave it be."

I was speaking in terms of dispatching pests. In that arena yes, firearms are the fastest, most effective and most humane way to harvest or cull from all standpoints (it should go without saying that accuracy would be a factor with any method used).



"I've seen that with hogs, but not with deer. No dog can corner a deer in the wild. And if it's a hound, it most likely isn't even going to try."

I don't know of anywhere (at least in the United States) where hunting deer with dogs is legal, so of course I wouldn't expect any dog to ever corner a deer. I was talking coons (no escape from a tree) and hogs (no escape from a pack).

The thought of dogs pursuing ungulates never even crossed my mind because I've never heard of anyone but poachers ever being interested in allowing their dogs to do such a thing.



"Don't know why the diss on "skill." I could sit in a stand and kill a deer with a shotgun easily, and it's easy to say that I don't have any skill with guns."

Walking up to a giant animal being "held" by dogs and shooting it 10 feet away from your person has nothing to do with any sort of skill.

As far as your deer scenario, shooting ACCURATELY does require skill whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. I've never heard anyone ever in my entire life argue otherwise.

My school aged children this very moment could gut shoot or wound any animal out of stand with a shotgun or rifle too, and ultimately that indeed would lead to it's death.....but that's exactly why they aren't legal to hunt yet and why to be so someday they're going to need to take a class stressing the importance of safety, accuracy and ethics. All good hunters take time to hone their skill so as to avoid to the best of their ability the scenario Tiller shared of the hunter having remorse over a bad shot.

The occasional bad shot still happens to the most experienced hunter due to a myriad of circumstances.

There is no way someone can tell me someone with little or absolutely no experience has similar odds. Would be like saying a 15 year old with a learners permit can drive a car as well as a 40 year old semi-truck driver.

With anything in life practice to hone skill is pertinent. Not sure why firearms are an exception in your mind?



"Nature's not forgiving is all I can say. Hunting, no matter how you spin it, is never sympathetic either. You can try to make it sound like deer shot with guns and bows always die on the spot happy as a clam, but that's not realistic."

Where did I ever say anything like that??

The only thing I've ever claimed is that it's the most humane way to dispatch or cull an animal. And that everything that happens before and after that shot is solely based on what the law requires should or an individual hunters ethics.

A genuine question.....you tree that coon, shoot it, and it falls to the ground injured but not dead. Do you go up and kick it? Swing it around by it's tail? Skin it live?

I'm going to assume that's an obvious no......because it's beyond cruel right? Why on earth would you torture an animal like that? The pursuit by domesticated dogs and subsequent mental anguish involved with treeing, or holding, is seen the same way by many.

I'm not sure how to make that any clearer for you.




"I suggest you watch some old Wild Kingdom documentaries. Animals are quite often eaten while still alive. I really don't get how you, as a hunter, keep perceiving nature to be so forgiving. It can take quite a long time for animals to dispatch prey. I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy for them to be preyed upon by hyenas. Bears rip the flesh right off of fish swept right out of the river. Let's not kid ourselves, life is brutal."

Again with the silly claims of descriptions I've never used.....

Being ADEPT and PROFICIENT has nothing to do with being forgiving.


An animal may start to be consumed while it's still alive but it doesn't take an hour to finally put the prey out of it's misery.




"Nobody likes seeing it. The same as how one could argue how anyone could stomach killing anything via any method. You can turn it whatever way you want. It's never fun to see an animal killed. But we aren't made to live forever either."

Indeed we aren't made to live forever, but we also aren't made to be tortured in death. Imho there is absolutely no way to justify cruelty or torture.

I don't mind people struggling with what I do, I don't at all mind if it's something someone else could never fathom doing themselves. I eat meat. I feel some sort of moral pull to take full responsibility for that process, have the opportunity to do so, and I do. That doesn't mean my sense of compassion goes out the window. I don't eat factory farmed meats for the same reasons I hunt the way I do. I suppose it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of YOUR life if the chickens you eat lived their entire lives in a cage the size of a shoe box...but I'm sure it mattered to the chicken.....just as it would matter if it was plucked to death before being killed as opposed to sparing it that experience.



"You say you don't let your dogs run on deer, but I have and do."

I don't just say it, I don't allow it period nor will I ever.

I think we've been down this road before, but it's worth mentioning again, if it's illegal where you're at I strongly suggest you stop that.


I'm still unsure how you know so much about what goes on inside the mind of a deer. We spend thousands each year feeding them, providing habitat for them, photographing them, studying our local herds, researching state and nationwide population trends and effects, contributing to local and widespread conservation efforts, attending conferences and banquets......and I still feel like I know next to nothing about them shrug



Aaaaaall of that said, by all means, if you want to partake then go ahead and do just that. In the end you're the only one that's going to have to answer for your actions on a legal and moral level.

Edited by author Thu Jan 3, '13 2:12pm PST

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Member Since
12/31/1969
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 2:16pm PST 
I will just say a few things:

I'm not a hunter, but I'm not ignorant of 'how nature is'. I know full well that animals suffer and die and then are consumed, and that it's sometimes prolonged. As an extreme example, a few times I saw documentaries of a lion hunt on elephants, when they were desperately hungry, and it DID take the elephant hours of what basically would morally amount to torture, before it finally succumbed out of exhaustion and blood loss. Hours after being cornered and attacked by a pride of lionesses, with their thousands of pounds of combined weight clawed into its back and legs, a waiting game in exhaustion.

The difference to me being that nature, and animals which have no other choice but to hunt for food, all do it out of desperation to one degree or another.

For humans, overwhelmingly the hunt is not about food, or survival. People can choose to like or prefer to eat game meat, but rarely are they solely dependent on it as a means of survival. In that, I think that the act of hunting becomes more of a sport than anything else. And as a sport, I simply don't give it the same 'allowance'.

No, the result is not really different, but it's the intent and need behind the actions that matter more in terms of what we deem morally right or wrong.
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Trigger

*Blackdog*
 
 
Barked: Thu Jan 3, '13 2:26pm PST 
"The difference to me being that nature, and animals which have no other choice but to hunt for food, all do it out of desperation to one degree or another."

That's probably the best point I've seen made for that argument.
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