returning to breeder

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 12:34pm PST 
I have tried to stay out of this as my passion WILL override my post, but, I shudder to think what is happening to the many (if we believe the OP) innocent owners and their dogs who entrust their puppy's future to the beliefs and methods of this "trainer", especially those in her reactive classes. How many of these innocent puppies have been given up on, worse case, euthanized, due to her advice?
I would only hope she teaches by the do as I say, not as I do ideology.

Occupy Dog St.
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:11pm PST 
"I have tried to stay out of this as my passion WILL override my post, but, I shudder to think what is happening to the many (if we believe the OP) innocent owners and their dogs who entrust their puppy's future to the beliefs and methods of this "trainer", especially those in her reactive classes. How many of these innocent puppies have been given up on, worse case, euthanized, due to her advice? I would only hope she teaches by the do as I say, not as I do ideology."

See, this is the kind of stuff I find to be so interesting about what is happening in this conversation. I have a very happy client base, and I work my butt off to ensure everyone is taken care of on a personal basis. The truth is I have a lot of happy clients. I also have a lot to say on the subject of dogs. Much more than I could ever touch upon here. The people who DO grow to know me and trust me do so by spending time with me and having open discussions where each party is encouraged to ask questions and explore the information that pertains to the facts.

The idea that I'm some callous monster roaming around looking for dogs to kill is just ludicrous.

"Especially those in your reactive class"
Yeah, okay. My students would laugh at that statement. It's not a simple class, and every dog has a bite history. I think Ally Brown said it best that "Working with reactive dogs is a sometimes painfully slow process" ( at least it was something to that effect) I'm very proud of the students who commit to that class because each and every one of them has come such a long way. I ONLY take serious offense to that statement because you are downplaying and trashing the accomplishments of some very dedicated people.

Now, how are your accusations supposed to be used here? You have no real evidence to base ANY of those statements on, and I don't think anyone on here wants to participate in attacking peoples character. I feel like those statements were made just to be mean.
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:18pm PST 
Tonka, what I am trying to say....and it's not directly to you, as you did what you thought you had to for your family, and that is your right....is that the reality isn't consistent with your own interpretations. If you need to feel that way for your own peace of mind, ok, but that doesn't mean you are right. It means you do what you need to do, for you.

I have long been mentored by breeders. I don't think I'd be exaggerating to say put all together....200 years of experience. Toto is here too, and what I am about to say, as a breeder of long term, I know in advance she will agree with. The sad truth is that breeders don't know 100%, ever, their placements, and given enough time, there will be a bad placement, where something terrible happens to a puppy, and he comes back as not what they sent....a basket case. But what a breeder will ALSO tell you is that these puppies end up fine. Quite a few of them don't even do much....they are not behaviorists....but just put a puppy in a good place, give him some normalcy and happiness, and he comes around. Gets over it. Which they are primed to do.

They are puppies. They learn about the world every day, constantly adjusting their translations and viewpoints. I know several instances of show dogs who suffered severe trauma as young puppies and went on to be thriving champions in the show ring.

Even on a genetic level, the potential is still there, although harder than just one bad experience. On the Southpaws Facebook, a woman posts there named Zoe F*wler. Saying that for a reason. Her Truffle came in as one of a litter we had complete history on....they were quite young....and he stood out as genetically quite fearful. He was always in the back, and we ceased taking him to adoption events as he would panic so terribly it was not safe for him. I made the decision to hold him back and stay with me for a time. I didn't really do work with him....I just gave him normalcy and time. When he was eight months old, I thought he was ready for a transition and sent him to Dogster Lucille, to pick up fostering and just expand his horizons a bit, get some feedback. She did very well with him, and he was then placed with his family, who have a lovely puppy they rave about. You would not know he was in such a frightful panic as a young puppy. Because puppies learn, and as he learned he matured away from his pronounced fear. It is not they love him because he's a nurture case....they love him because he is a great puppy.

I do agree with Toto, that the disturbing part is that you do coach and counsel others, and you are, at the end of the day off your viewpoints, a non believer. I am telling you that there is no particular reason to believe this puppy will mature to fear aggression. She is far, far from the only puppy who has gotten attacked by an unrelated adult.

I've been around puppies a very long time, and I have yet to meet one who does not have good promise for a functional life. They scarier ones are those who as they mature, with no bad experiences, start to show some hardcore aggression. There is a Guest Dogster posting on such a dog now. My rescue adopted to a gentleman this year who rescued a puppy who out of the blue at age nine or ten months started to showing high aggression and off the charts drive....an ACD mix. He saw trainers and behaviorists and tried to curb the problems, but this was intensely genetic. Then you can feel very overwhelmed, and it may be beyond you as a pet owner. But with a young baby, who are already wired to do nothing but learn and grow, their future is still wide open.


Occupy Dog St.
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:23pm PST 
Wait, a non believer? Of what??

Occupy Dog St.
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:28pm PST 
I havent posted a single shred of information about how I conduct starting and managing clients dogs who deal with any kind of reactivity, fear and aggression issues. The fact that anyone is suggesting anything about the quality of work I do on a professional level makes no sense. Again if anyone WANTS to know the nutts and bolts, just ask me! I'm more than happy to give specific information.
Riku (Forever Missed)

Heart of Gold
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:39pm PST 
Tonka, I think all many of us are confused about is why someone who teaches a class for reactive dogs would consider euthanizing a five month old puppy who showed no fear aggression, and had only had ONE bad experience.

"The fact that anyone is suggesting anything about the quality of work I do on a professional level makes no sense."

Actually, it makes a lot of sense, because your core beliefs concerning puppies being "ruined" by traumatic experiences are false. Your choices regarding what you did with your own puppy contradict the work you claim to do.

It's like a veterinarian getting rid of a dog because it has a significant, but HIGHLY treatable illness. It's just an enormous contradiction.
Dylan aka- Dilly,my- angel

frisbee- s rule
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:39pm PST 
so tonka, let me ask you a question

can a young dog,born into the world of dog fighting, ever get over the trama and live a "normal" life?

a puppy, born and not up to fighing snuff, so used as a bait dog, can they be re entered into the dog world?
or should they all be euth`ed.?
a feral born puppy. any hope it can over come the trama of street life?

Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:52pm PST 
I think it's interesting you bring Ali (not Ally) Brown into this.

I know almost nothing about her but there are members here who work incredibly closely with her and would argue tooth and nail your logic that a single incident in puppyhood would condemn a dog to a lifetime of aggression issues. Can it? Maybe. But the likelyhood is so incredibly small it's almost not worth mentioning. And if it did the quality of the breeding would and SHOULD come under some pretty intense scrutiny.

In regards to the term "believer," I'd venture to say (based purely on what I've read about Ali here) that her beliefs are that near (if not) every dog can be raised and/or rehabbed to beyond perfection if the right methods are employed. Sure it may take time, but not every dog is doomed to spend their entire existence in a class setting simply because they had one bad experience.

IMHO you are grossly over estimating the potential for problems that could arise from a single occurrence, while at the same time grossly under estimating the damage done to a dog who is repeatedly rehomed in the way this guy has.

(As an aside, when you mentioned this breeder is breeding out of their apartment further red flags were definitely raised....not spouting definites as I don't have all the details, but I certainly wouldn't have much faith in a breeder of a working breed who chose that setting to keep and raise quality stock. Shih-tzu's? Ok. GSD's though? There's just no way unless they are dedicating pretty much all of their time to taking the dogs off site to run, raise and train their dogs to the caliber they deserve.)
Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:53pm PST 
The contradiction I'm seeing repeatedly here, and I believe what may be confusing a lot of people here too, is that you say you teach a Reactive class... Yet..

Believe it or not, not all dogs are 100% resilient, and what happens early on DOES indeed leave lasting scars.

If anyone here is interested in any of this, I'd highly suggest reading any of Ray and Lorna Coppengers writings. Lots of great knowledge, and i could quote either of them till the cows come home.
'It is important to differentiate between a defensive response due to inexperience and defensive responses that are a result of traumatic experiences."

"Fearful and apprehensive responses that are a result of traumatic experiences cannot be readily modified. Nature does not provide the mechanics to change a fear stimulus into one that elicits either a neutral or a relaxed, positive response.

"Most of the growth in a dogs brain occurs during the critical period(0-4 months) for social development. After growth, it is difficult to 'change the wiring.''

All of the above suggests that you believe MOST dogs cannot be rehabilitated if something caused their behavior within a certain age frame. Which is BULL in and of itself. I'm sure I can accurately say that MOST dogsters here have not only worked with and rehabilitated dogs with more serious issues, but that many OWN dogs who had more serious issues and are now perfectly good dogs, who function without issue.

Many of my fosters come to me with some form of aggression or another and I haven't had a problem with rehabilitating even one of them. My own dog Maya was severely fear aggressive when I got her, largely due in part to the way she was raised and trained from five weeks old. I KNEW most of her history, and she very well could have been 'wired wrong' after enough alcohol poisoning and abuse, but
she came out to be a wonderful dog with excellent manners and impeccable listening skills. She learned to accept people again.

Sabi has made many points on dogs she's rehabilitated. I'm sure that Toto and even Tiller could give you some ideas too on dogs they know that have been worked with and turned into great dogs. And I'm sure there are dozens of others that can prove your theory wrong too.

Where is the information, other than a book, that backs up what you believe? Where are the facts, the studies, any and all of that that can back it up? I haven't seen any.

And many people here will continue to disagree with your beliefs on dog rehabilitation.

That. I believe is where people are confused. You've repeatedly contradicted your own beliefs.
Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
Barked: Tue Jan 1, '13 1:55pm PST 
One of my very first dog tragedies was at my first kennel position. We had an 8 week old female GSD who somehow got out with a group of adult dogs. One of them grabbed her and absolutely crushed her lower jaw. She was obviously terrified, in severe pain and completely hysterical, all within her first critical fear period.
She was taken to the vet, her jaw was wired shut and she proceeded to develop into the most wonderful, stable adult dog ever, with just normal puppy raising, nothing special at all. She did end up with a shorten lower jaw and the name "Snert". She had consistency, training, and normalcy. She suffered no lasting fear of ANY dogs and was the greatest ambassador to that wonderful GSD temperament and I earned my first Companion Dog Title with her at the end of the leash.
Good thing euthaniza wasn't considered!
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