GO!

returning to breeder

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
(Page 6 of 9: Viewing entries 51 to 60)  
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  
Tonka

Occupy Dog St.
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 6:03pm PST 
"So dogs can't be fixed after a certain time"

I never claimed that, and that is a gross generalization clumping all reactivity together. I did mention earlier that depending on how a problem develops effects how you fix/manage the problem. For instance, a single traumatic experience leaves lasting effects that in some cases cannot be altered at all. Where reactive problems based on inexperience/ under socialization are VERY workable. Also, a single traumatic experience combined with the right temperament that happens outside (and in some mild cases inside) of the first fear imprint stage (8-12 weeks) tends to be easier to work through as well.

*Each dog and its history is unique and there are MANY factors taken into considering when evaluating for anything at all.
[notify]
Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 6:27pm PST 
I'm so confused at this point... So many contradictions.

I agree with everything that Sabi, Addy, Riku, and Jackson have all said so far.
[notify]
Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 6:50pm PST 
Well, I don't think Tonka is a troll. I've seen the OP around here before. I'm just confused is all, like Charlie. It's doing my head in a bit. There's nothing else really for me to say so I'll step out for now. What's done is done, I just found the story very peculiar, as I think a lot of us did. And I think the responses pretty much answer the question as to who would return a puppy to a breeder and for what reasons. It seems very few of us would, from what is written here, so that covers that.
[notify]

Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 7:08pm PST 
OP, you are being very level headed and I am not going to rag on you....I never post to lock horns with anyone any way....it's more general info.

I have two concerns. First is that you do have a hard line. That's nothing I fault or find problem in, but with it you do have to wonder when you are starting out with a baby, aka a puppy. There are experiences puppies can have, something you obviously note and identify with, but there are also raw genetics. Less palpable by some counts, and yet far more of a threat than experience. Far harder to work with, far more restrictive in terms of potential outcome. These are things that can be overt from a very young age, *or* they can crop up during the teenage phase also.

That's why I say, if something MUST be, then you get an adult. Then you're clear. I would tell that to anyone. If not, then you are basically putting a dog at risk by taking them on, simply by having that hardline. Fear aggression can pop up in the teen stage, and quite frankly in the long run it is far easier to deal with a genetically sound dog young puppy who has had a bad experience vs a genetic matter that crops up during the second fear imprint. So your best shot is to deal with a sound adult who has all that good foundation under him.

In terms of bad experiences and puppies, I want to share a dog with you HERE. This is Peter, and I don't think I need to say that he was almost dead. In such horrid, horrid shape that my rescue partner spent an entire day with him stuffed in the back of her car, getting turned down by one vet after another. They didn't want to touch him. Finally one agreed, the puppy started to twitch when the IV was inserted; he was pretty sure then that puppy had distemper, him surviving the night was in question. A rescue associate...GSD breeder who actually won an AOM at Westminster last year and is a superb fund raiser for rescue....found a dogless EMT foster (to maintain him on IVs) for this poor thing, who was raised in a barn, completely unsocialized and now near death. He had not known a good day in his life and was four months old.

Long story short, he survived, did not have distemper, the foster ended up failing and adopting him herself, and today he's a SAR dog. He ended up absolutely fine and quite fearless, her explanation being "he's already been to hell and back."

This outcome did not surprise me. Puppies are resilient. I am all about the fear imprint myself, but it is about ensuring ideals. A fact that bemuses me in this context, for if you respect the fear imprint....if it is that defining for you....why you would have taken on a puppy rehomed DURING a fear imprint and now gets shuffled off again is something I can't grasp. That is of equal, if not MORE, concern, as it is a lot more "natural" for a puppy during this stage to get attacked (let's say by a over zealous teenager in a natural pack) then to get sent away to a strange place during such a critical time and end up getting bounced around. I have been around puppies many, many years and have had some great mentors. I would far more readily take on a puppy who had suffered a bad event, vs one who at such a young age has been bounced around so much. In the end for her, and I say this in the gentlest way I can, that's what upsets me here. She's four months old, and keeps on learning how unstable life is. Terrifically sad.

It's not that I am ragging on you, but that I need to stress generally that puppies can come with some issues. Not all my perfect....and I mean PERFECT.....breeder puppies have been free of some funky stuff. Onyx commented, and she had a great experience. But one wink My GSD Pogo was catatonic on arrival and just a walking drama for the first year of his life (ended up being a legend), my Cocker Chester had a very vulnerable tummy (matured out of that, is 13 now and hasn't been sick a day in his adult life), Tiller himself was exasperating as a young-un as he lacked interest in the entire socialization and outside venture routine (he's now bold as anything).

There's a MYTH that if you want a guarantee, you get a breeder dog. That's not so. If you want to stack the cards most in your favor, you do. And of course breeder selection is critical. Not just for the puppy, but as someone whose judgement you can trust/invest in, and stick with it for the long haul as they really know the pedigree, raised the puppy, did the assessments, so if they are not red flagging what I am experiencing, then I trust that and work on these matters.

In terms of rough starts, I've lost count of how many I've dealt with through rescue. The genetic ones you can see pretty quickly and those sorts require a ton of investment in their raising. The bad experience ones, on the other hand, tend to come around. I dealt with a Mastiff mix female who was completely shut down....she'd freeze if you even made eye contact. But she's very naughty and thriving today. She had had a very rough beginning, but really only needed good experiences to completely come around.

I am not arguing with you, Tonka, but I did need to put that out, just for general info. My moral of this story being that just because there is a return clause doesn't excuse the level of commitment. As returning a puppy or dog is a serious matter....it sets them back....tremendous forethought needs to be invested before you sign that dotted line, even if there is a return clause above it.
[notify]
Kye

I'm like- Einstein only- hairier.
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 7:17pm PST 
Let me first start by saying that it is absolutely important to not only research the breed of puppy you are choosing but the breeder as well. All puppies are a lot of work, even older dogs need time to learn the ropes in a new home, not all dogs make the transition into a new home as smoothly as others and it is important to really sit down and think about if you have the time, finances and patience to welcome a new family member into your home. I agree with whomever posted that the facts were a bit confusing when reading through all the information provided by the OP.

That being said I also was shocked to read the part about euthanasia for a UTI and fear, while I do agree that the puppy should have been removed from the home if adequate care and socialization were not being met under the care of the OP.
I'll start by addressing the UTI. My room mate adopted a Chocolate Labrador Retriever x Chesapeake Bay Retriever from the local SPCA. She was 9 months old when she was adopted and had been vaccinated and checked by the vet as per all adoptable dogs in this SPCA. Tekla was very calm and friendly, had an absolutely great temperament but after a week of having her I noticed she drank lots and urinated frequently and would sometimes have an unpleasant musky odor when she licked her genitals. After weeks of harassment her owner took her in to see the vet and she was diagnosed with Vulvar Hypoplasia / Infantile Vulva which is basically where the vulva is covered by a flap of extra skin (not really the most medically sound explanation but there you go) causing bacteria to get trapped and create chronic UTI's. The vet recommended surgery, called an episioplasty, which would cost a little over $800. As a pet parent you should have some money set aside for unplanned accidents and emergencies, which her owner did not. I forked out the money to have her surgery done because I cannot stand to watch a dog suffer from something that is easily (if not cheaply) treatable. I would never have let her owner put her down for something that can be corrected, especially if it's fixed in one surgery and there is no lingering pain/aches after she had healed. Whenever you adopt/purchase or accept an animal you are financially responsible for its food, shelter and medical needs and if you cannot afford the vet then you cannot afford the pet, in my opinion anyway. **Just a note I'm not saying the OP was going to put her down due to the cost of having her UTI treated, just something I strongly believe in.

As for the fear issue I do not believe that any dog is "damaged" beyond repair. My dog Kye I adopted in 2004 as an adult dog, he was so afraid of people he would literally just shut down, his pupils would dilate and he would shake and pee all over himself. It was heartbreaking to see, even shelter staff who had been working with him for the greater part of a month had a hard time getting him to respond without fear when they handled him. I was lucky, there was something about me he liked right away and I managed to get a leash on him without incident and just like that I knew he was for me. After filling out the papers the lady up front told me that she didn't think he would ever leave there, he was on the euthanasia list for the next morning. I'm not going to say it was a cinch right off the hop, he liked and trusted me right away but with strangers was a different story. I spent years, yes years, getting him to the well adjusted canine marvel he is today and I couldn't be prouder of him! It was a lot of work, time and patience but it was 110% worth it. Anything great is worth working for, be that possessions, relationships or knowledge and if you aren't willing to make that commitment maybe you should rethink getting a puppy. Even puppies with breeders can have behavioral issues/quirks that need to be worked through and you will never have "the perfect" dog unless you are willing to work on it. You get what you put in.
[notify]
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 7:18pm PST 
ETA: Tonka is not a troll and I appreciate how well they have been comporting themselves. I think the OP is very concerned/intimidated by fear aggression. That's clear. Fear, no matter how strong, in a young puppy is never a cause to consider a euth. I think simply that thought says loads and might be the cause of the confusion. This is why I keep stressing, with a line that hard, getting a socially terrifically stable adult is the only thing to do. That's when there is this thing you really can't deal with, and now you know it is avoided.

Edited by author Sun Dec 30, '12 7:20pm PST

[notify]
Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 8:12pm PST 
"A fact that bemuses me in this context, for if you respect the fear imprint....if it is that defining for you....why you would have taken on a puppy rehomed DURING a fear imprint and now gets shuffled off again is something I can't grasp."

That's pretty much what is confusing me about this story too Tiller. I do not understand that at all. Out of all of it, that is the most bemusing thing of all. I feel like OP set themselves up for failure in doing this, given their standards.

Just sayin'.
[notify]
Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 10:48pm PST 
I agree that the breeder sounds negligent. I'm not bothering to rail against the breeder because I don't see the point. But, morally, I couldn't return a dog to a bad situation. If this were a genuinely good breeder and a freak accident, the breeder would not allow the dog to bounce around between uninformed, inappropriate homes. There would be a return clause, and he or she would keep the dog and rehabilitate it, or place the dog in a carefully screened home who could do so. That is clearly not the case here. Just as if I paid a hefty adoption fee and then found out the rescue was neglectful in addition to having failed to disclose the dog's issues, I would do everything in my power to find the dog a new home rather than send it back to a bad situation just so that I could get a refund or wouldn't have to interview homes myself. I might pursue legal action, depending on how much money was involved, but the dog's health and safety comes first. That's especially true because money spent purchasing a dog is disposable income. it is not rent money or food money or even money going to help shelter dogs. I wonder about the morals and commitment level of someone who is so cavalier about an animal's quality of life, and a young puppy with whom she had bonded, at that. In addition, OP, you seem to have incredibly unreasonable expectations of raising a puppy. I'm a little mystified about how these have persisted through actual dog ownership and what I guess is trainer certification, but there it is. An hour of walks and some daily training does not even scratch the surface. It's overwhelmingly likely that, at some point, something at least as bad as early fear issues will befall your dog, and unless you have chosen a much better breeder the second time around and they are willing to overlook your history with the puppy you returned, you will no longer have the option to return the dog. Given how readily you considered euthanizing this pup, I guess that's what you'll do unless you can push the dog off on someone else. If you don't care about the ethical issues, maybe you at least care about what your friends and clients will think of you when that happens.
[notify]
Riku (Forever Missed)

Heart of Gold
 
 
Barked: Mon Dec 31, '12 3:19am PST 
All right then, not a troll. Can't help but be bothered by the fact that this person who claims to be so knowledgeable ignores every single one of our posts about dogs with worse behavior issues being rehabilitated, and chalks it up to us being lucky. I'm stepping out of this argument, because it's clearly useless. I really can't respect or defend a person who believes what they do, did what they did, and claims to teach training classes. Just a bit too much for me.

Not all of us can be so composed with our passion, Tiller. So I apologize for the troll comment.

meditate
[notify]
Tonka

Occupy Dog St.
 
 
Barked: Mon Dec 31, '12 10:52am PST 
To everyone that has become defensive about the subject of euthanasia, I do apologize for bringing up such a emotional and controversial subject the way I did. It was a side note, and I did not include any specifics on why in this situation it was an option. Just as returning to the breeder, keeping a dog, or rehoming a dog are all options.

There is no doubt that helping a dog to overcome fears and issues can be done, as long as it is studied in a personal context and that as much information is taken into consideration. I wish that there were more people with the capacity and resources to help dogs who has less of an ideal start in life.

The original intent was not to argue on ways of SOLVING problems created, but the EASY PREVENTION of problems.

Many of you probably live in areas where trainers and behavior specialists are available to you, as well as a whole host of other resources making it a possibility to both solve and manage COMPLEX issues. Where we live, most people have to travel 250 miles just to gain access to what many of you have access to every day. Resources, particularly for dogs is very limited here.

For my area I'm pretty much it. For this particular dog, there was no where else to go that wouldnt intensify her issues. Not to mention that the prevailing ideas of 'training' and keeping a dog around here is largely barbaric.

I know many of you had other questions, thoughts and comments, but at this point in the conversation I find I'd be trying to fight my way through too much verbiage and that would just further dilute the point I was trying to make.

In which case, I will end with this point. Yes, I do tend to be controversial because of my pragmatic approach to dog education. Yes I have high standards, and yes I can absolutely agree that if I could recreate this situation, I would do things differently. Hindsight after all is always 20/20. But in the end, I DONT want to support and facilitate low standards. If anyone creates and puts anything out into the world that is harmful they should be held accountable and be at least in part partially responsible for their choices. People don't change unless a problem is dropped right into their laps.
My intent was to stand up for what I believe in, in hope that it will shed some light on the seriousness of PREVENTION and the long term effects of how we treat eachother.
[notify]
  (Page 6 of 9: Viewing entries 51 to 60)  
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9