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returning to breeder

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Tonka

Occupy Dog St.
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 9:06am PST 
Mulder, I feel like everything you've said is spot on. There were contractual obligations involved, and the fact that the breeder I've come to find out just flat out lies. I've experienced this, and now know it to be true. Sometimes we get burned when we choose to listen to people who are liars. In a way, the purchase is similar to buying a 6 month old car with low miles, perfect condition for blue book value only to find out it's been in a undocumented rollover and has problems which makes it totaled. It looks and runs great, but someday soon the frame is going to break apart and theres nothing you can do about it.

"There's a lot of judgement being thrown around here... and I'm going to assume the majority of it is coming from the fact that OP mentioned euthanasia, which I GET is a sore spot and I don't like that either. But that's not what happened. The puppy went back with its breeder, and that's the end of the story. "

I don't like the idea either, but the reality is that me being aware makes me legally liable if the dog damages, injures or kills anything in the future. Over the years, I've made judgments on dogs that no one else thought would ever be dangerous and EVERY TIME it's overlooked, someone gets hurt. I can think of 9 cases off the top of my head, and I'm sure there's more I'm not aware of.


"You purchase a dog from a breeder, you do so with some sort of idea as to what's going to happen. Its your right at the BUYER to get a healthy, temperamentally stable dog, unless you expressly state that you are willing to take on an issue case. Which, reminding here again, OP DID NOT. "

We did buy her with the intention of working around SOME behaviors that are preventable like rude greetings/jumping up, separation anxiety, indiscriminate chewing, coprophagia, no potty training, etc etc... What I said I would NOT deal with is maladjusted behavior towards other dogs. My son goes to ALL of my private and group training classes EXCEPT reactivity consults and my reactive dog class. I WON'T have that specific problem in my home.


"This was a bad situation all around, and sadly the dog is the one who suffered the most from it."
Thank you for saying this. The dog will be suffering from this for the rest of her life and will probably end up living a very low quality of life. This whole situation could have been prevented with a single second of forethought.

I understand how some people can be under the impression that EVERY dog can just 'get over' things like this, but the reality is this simply isnt true.
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Tonka

Occupy Dog St.
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 9:35am PST 
Sabi you said,
"I agree with everything you said Mulder. Except that the OP knew that this was a returned pup, knew that she had been held back initially for health issues.
The OP stated that the breeder dismissed the attack and subsequent vet care to the first buyer, which indicates that they were told."

Actually those are all assumptions and not at all what happened. This pup was not returned, the contract was signed over to me with the breeders agreement, and I mostly delt with the person who initially bought the dog from the breeder. There was no information about the attack at 8 weeks and was never brought up. When I asked if the pup ever had any off or scary experiences with other dogs the owner said no because she never did in HIS care. I had to track down the previous records and talk to the vet to find out what happened. Thats only AFTER I suspected there was a history after bringing the dog home. AND no, the dog was never held back due to health issues.
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Riku (Forever Missed)

Heart of Gold
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 1:56pm PST 
"What is different for me is that i have the insight and knowledge to understand that fear created by an INCIDENT during the critical period cannot be changed after ~day 49 due to the development and structure of the brain."

Wow. Then why do dog behaviorists even exist? They RESOLVE ISSUES IN DOGS. Quite successfully. I think most of us here on Dogster (who have actually kept a dog..) have resolved issues far greater than the one you encountered. Three of the dogs I rescued had been attacked by other dogs when they were younger than Tonka, and were able to overcome the resulting fears with positive reinforcement before they even reached adulthood. As I stated in my previous post, Riku was attacked MULTIPLE times by other dogs, had the scars to prove it, and was already an adult when I got her. She too, overcame her intense fear of other dogs to the point where she could greet them without aggression. This was after YEARS of intense fear before she came to me, not just a few weeks of what you experienced. You are right that fear from a negative experience is quite different than fear due to a lack of experience, but you are flat out wrong that it CANNOT, under any circumstance, be changed. You also aren't clairvoyant I assume? How were you CERTAIN this dog was ruined forever at only five months of age?

If what you said had ANY basis in truth, every single shelter dog I've ever rescued was a marvel of science. Clearly, you know nothing about behavior modification at all. Just because a few specialists and experts decide that puppies are ruined by bad experiences doesn't discount the THOUSANDS of cases of dogs being rehabilitated for larger issues than what you experienced. So please, do yourself (and any dog you might end up with in the future) a favor and stop pretending as though you understand the nature of how dogs learn.

You returning the dog was the right choice. I'm not arguing with that, but please stop spreading false information that might make other people abandon their dogs/puppies for issues that can clearly be resolved.

Edited by author Sun Dec 30, '12 1:58pm PST

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Tonka

Occupy Dog St.
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 3:11pm PST 
Well I applaud you for having worked with 3 dogs, but there are more variables than what you can see in just 3 animals.

And yes, it is true that IRREPARABLE damage can be done to a puppy. Not ALL dogs are going to react the same way in the same situation, but it doesnt change the fact that life doesnt work out perfectly all of the time.
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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 4:50pm PST 
That was pretty much the case. The breeder had this pup knowing what had happened to it, and told the previous owner not to worry about the emergency vet bill in the records from when she was attacked and that she just 'drinks alot of water.

You obviously knew that the original buyers had issues, you just didn't want to do the work. But to blame the breeder, and think about destroying a pup for what amounts to a minor issue is just wrong.
You keep saying I am making assumptions, but you bought a pup from someone who had had her for 3 weeks, you didn't research the breeder, you failed to think about your personal situation before you purchased the pup, you then ditched her after 5 weeks and you blame everyone but yourself.
I'm glad she went back to the breeder, I'm sorry that the shuffling probably added to issues she may have. We are all busy, we all have lives but we find ways to make it work. I have a dog that has more issues then TV Guide but it has never crossed my mind to give up on her, and it never will. And you want to talk about traumatic experiences she was tossed away like trash, injured and left to die. My other dog Bud was tortured, literally, for almost 9 months. Shot, starved, run over, beaten, attacked by other dogs while chained, soaked with a hose and left outside to freeze. By the time we found him and got him out of there he was 11 months old and a raving maniac. I have had him since that day and he is FINE! So don't tell me that these things make a dog unfixable. I pull dogs all the time that most people would write off and as I stated before they turn out just wonderful. I have Morri laying at my feet who had NO socializing, had never been out of the cage she was born in. She is one of the easiest dogs I have ever met. How about Senora who was tossed over my fence one afternoon at 12 weeks or so, Gabriels littermates who were dumped sick and dying on my doorstep in mid winter, Axel who had his front leg almost torn off by another dog at 5 weeks, Savannah, Sierra and Solange picked up from a puppy mill at 7 weeks after the owner beat their mother to death for escaping,Dawn who also had never been out of her cage and came to me at 11 months or so with a broken leg and a litter, Drake who lived for 2 weeks with his paw caught in the wire of his cage. I pulled him at about 4 months. I could keep going but I won't. This is just the last year or so. A sampling of the dogs I have worked with and placed who are ALL great, loving, well adjusted pets in average pet owner homes. None of them needed much more time then to resolve the health issues. What they all needed was love and understanding.
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 5:03pm PST 
Sabi applause

Returned, kept back, same difference. Still a 4 month old pup, not in your hands. You preach all this, but you still purchased a pup socialised by someone else during that 'vital' 4 month gap.

Again, I say, if you honestly believe that, you would want to raise the pup from 8 weeks yourself. Going out and getting a 4 month old pup 'set in their ways' as you believe STILL makes no sense to me. I'm completely bewildered as to why someone in your mindset would do it, and a pup that has been returned to boot.

I hope the pup finds a loving home, someone with time and patience like Sabi's owner, because I in no way shape or form think it is ruined.

And yes, no puppy comes perfect. To want the perfect pup seems a bit of a pipe dream to me.
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Addy, CGC

Let's go for a- walk!
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 5:06pm PST 
Mulder, what disturbs me is that yes, the OP mentioned euthanasia, which is totally inappropriate and downright bizarre in the circumstances, and also that the OP told us not that she doesn't want/isn't prepared for a project, but that this poor dog is unfixable at such a young age based on one incident.

Most of us here have rehabbed dogs with more issues.

I wonder if the OP has ever raised a puppy before, or has in fact only had adult dogs.
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Riku (Forever Missed)

Heart of Gold
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 5:24pm PST 
I said three "of" the dogs, there have been plenty more. You claim to have vast experience with "damaged" dogs, and yet have none of the real knowledge (or compassion, for that matter) to show for it. If you had EVER worked with ANY dog at all you would know that your logic is not only false, but ludicrous.

I also never said ANY dog is going to be perfect, those are YOUR standards, not mine. No dog is perfect, but I wish you luck in your quest to find the perfect dog. And if you do find a "perfect" dog you have to put little to no effort into, I hope you don't choose to euthanize it the second something goes wrong. Because something will.
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 5:30pm PST 
"My son goes to ALL of my private and group training classes EXCEPT reactivity consults and my reactive dog class."

I find this odd, just as an aside, because OP claims in another post to teach a reactive dog class.

So dogs can't be fixed after a certain time and yet the OP is fixing dogs?

So lost ...thinking

Edited by author Sun Dec 30, '12 5:31pm PST

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Squ'mey

too old to eat- any more KD
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 30, '12 5:58pm PST 
Tonka is not a troll & there is no need to be name calling. Totally against community guidelines. You can disagree, in a respectful way.shrug
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