returning to breeder

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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When the night- closes in I will- be there
Barked: Fri Dec 28, '12 7:05pm PST 
Ok, I don't understand. When I bring a pup home, I am in it for the long haul, no matter what. I would be angry, I would probably be asking for a price reduction but I would not return the dog. The problems that you indicated are workable. The fact that you have a young child is not the pups fault.
Sabi was a dream right from day one. She was the easiest pup I have ever had, and I have raised hundreds of pups. Shadow has been a nightmare almost from the start but at no point have I held that against her. As far as problems go the only thing that would justify euthing a pup would be blatant aggression. I have had to deal with that and I still hung on for almost 2 years trying,training and praying for a miracle. Health issues can most often be treated or managed, and a UTI, well just ask Toto.
I am glad you returned her though because it sounds like getting her in the first place may have been a bit of poor planning on your part. No pup is perfect, it's not like ordering a pizza. You may spend years molding it into your dog. But the payoff is so, so worth it.
Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
Barked: Fri Dec 28, '12 7:31pm PST 
I'm going to be blunt and it's going to likely come off as rude and upset you.. But it's me being honest from what I understand of the whole situation.

You got a German Shepherd puppy... When you have a nine month old.. And expected to have time for even a well balanced puppy, AND the baby? I mean.. Trained, older dogs and a baby are one thing... But put a puppy and a baby together and in my opinion, that's asking for A LOT of hard work and energy and time out of your day, not to mention that pups need one on one time and giving that to a puppy while you have a baby demanding all that attention too... I fully see all of that as poor planning and not being prepared in the first place for a puppy in and of itself. Your nine month old baby is safer, in my opinion, with a sound ADULT dog that adores children and has been well socialized with them from the get go. Puppies jump on people, scratch people, bite people, etc and will no doubt do it to a baby just as quickly as they would an adult. My fiance wanted to raise a puppy with a baby. I outright refused and told him if he wanted a puppy, he'd better get one well in advance, or after our baby is in school because I refused to deal with a puppy jumping all over my baby and injuring my baby. I now have a nine month old pup, an a five year old adult dog, both well into their training, and well socialized with young babies/children that when my baby comes in seven or so months, I'll be able to handle it better than if we decided to get Ria soon after baby was born.

I'm STILL appalled by the fact that you would have considered euthanasia over fearfulness and a UTI.

I'm going to also be blunt and point out that with many of these dog owners that responded having worked with puppies, rescues and even breeders(or are breeders, in Toto's case), that they are well aware of what the socialization period is.

It does also sound that if this breeder FAILED to inform you of these issues prior to you taking her, that you did not do your research and find a REPUTABLE breeder in the first place, which, if you wanted a better likelihood of a 'sound animal', you should have done(I apologize if I am wrong). Many dogsters here can help you find excellent, reputable breeders if you need help finding them and can help you with what to look for.

Again, still not entirely certain why you would have considered euthanasia at four months old.

I can absolutely understand why you wouldn't want a puppy with issues. Not everyone is equipped to deal with a dog of any age with issues. But it doesn't sound like, with a nine month old, you really have the time for a young puppy that requires constant attention, training and potty breaks either. I apologize if my post offends you in any way. I'm just still a little shocked by the entire post and while I do understand some aspects of it... Others still shock me.

Edited by author Fri Dec 28, '12 7:32pm PST

Jackson Tan

Lad about town
Barked: Fri Dec 28, '12 7:56pm PST 
I also stand my my original comments. I also agree with everything Charlie has said. A puppy and a baby is a lot of work and I don't care who you have helping you.

The euthanasia comment still blows me away. Most dogsters me included have worked through issues far more severe and never considered that option so I think that is why most of us are dazed you would even mention that.

Addy, CGC

Let's go for a- walk!
Barked: Sat Dec 29, '12 12:44am PST 
If you would consider putting a puppy down because of a UTI and fear of other dogs, far better she should go back to her breeder. Both issues are quite fixable, but they require an owner who cares about and is committed to the dog.

Addy was a year old, afraid of everything, and fear-aggressive toward other dogs. It took patience and determination, but she is the joy of my life, friendly, out-going, and thrilled when we can visit the dog park. Rehabbing a dog with issues from past experiences isn't for everyone, but can result in a rewarding experience and a truly special relationship.

And you're talking about a puppy. Puppies go through fear stages when being afraid of new things and new individuals us completely normal. You seem, to me, to have massively over-reacted.

Fritz, cats are- fun when they- run
Barked: Sat Dec 29, '12 11:18am PST 
(quote)I also failed to mention that we have a 9 month old son that requires my time, and deserves to be around a safe, healthy and sound animal.(quote)

I don't think you need any puppy right now and maybe not even a grown dog. Your son may deserve to be around a healthy animal, but your puppy deserved an owner who would give him the time and attention he needed. Giving the puppy back was probably a good idea, not because the puppy had problems but because you are not ready for a puppy.

I don't think the Breeder is at fault in this situation. I hope the puppy gets a better home next time around.

Occupy Dog St.
Barked: Sat Dec 29, '12 12:42pm PST 
"I'm still not entirely clear on the situation. What exactly happened with the UTI? What physical problems came about as a result? Did the vet say it looked like it had been left untreated for a long period of time which caused permanent damage? "

It was left untreated for around 6 weeks, and caused her to be unable to hold urine for more than 2-3 hrs AFTER it was treated. They suspect kidney damage and scar tissue in the bladder but is still unknown the extent of the problem seeing how soon it is. Having to wake up to let a 5 month old pup out 4 times per night is taxing with a young baby.

"You say she felt physical pain from seeing another dog...I guess I'm just wondering how you would know that was the case, and that she wasn't just fearful in the normal sense? Wouldn't that fall under the category of a neurological issue? Was the attack by the other dog physically damaging? "

All great questions. Her eyes would flinch and she would fold her face inward, while in a sheer panic, all the while squealing in a painful pitch. Her eyes would completely dilate, her movements would become frantic and towards the end her breathing would become labored. The intensity of all of this was also on quite a high level. Having a background in dealing with fearful, reactive and aggressive dogs, this is a HUGE warning sign. Most often, even in the second fear imprint period, a previous 'bad experience' doesn't show up this strongly until around 18 months.

I" If the breeder knew about that issue beforehand and didn't mention it, that's definitely unscrupulous."

That was pretty much the case. The breeder had this pup knowing what had happened to it, and told the previous owner not to worry about the emergency vet bill in the records from when she was attacked and that she just 'drinks alot of water.'

"Like Mulder said, a big part of the reason you go to a breeder and pay the big bucks is to get a puppy that has had the odds stacked in its favor, both in terms of genetics and environment. "

That's what we understood when purchasing this puppy. I work with dogs, hike, camp, and my son and old dog who passed is always a part of the action. Our family needs a dog who can be included, not who is scared to death of what we have to offer.

Everyone's situation is certainly different. For me, working with problem dogs is NOT something new. I've seen alot of generalization surrounding this topic, but at the end of the day not of it changes the circumstance of this situation. I know all to well what kind of work has to be done with this particular pup, and what pains me the most is that some people fail (ie the breeder)to recognize the consequences, both good and bad, their actions have their puppies for the REST OF THEIR LIVES.

When the night- closes in I will- be there
Barked: Sat Dec 29, '12 1:40pm PST 
You said 'we recently acquired a 4 month old german shepherd pup, and decided to return her to the breeder. We found out that she was attacked by a neighbor dog at 8 weeks old and had also suffered a UTI for who knows how long.' Then you said 'mention that the UTI was already treated right away by us, and has been cleared up for a few weeks now. This pup was also with the breeder until 13 weeks, 5 weeks longer than the other pups' And then you said
'That was pretty much the case. The breeder had this pup knowing what had happened to it, and told the previous owner not to worry about the emergency vet bill in the records from when she was attacked and that she just 'drinks alot of water.''

Three contradictory statements that just confirm my opinion that you did not do your homework and suffered buyers remorse. The fact that you would even consider having this poor baby PTS is sick. You claim to be knowledgeable about behavior and yet you have repeatedly stated that this behavior is a 'lifelong problem'. Not with proper training and handling. I have seen plenty of timid pups and a few stubborn ones throw fits like someone was skinning them. I have had neighbors come to make sure pups weren't being tortured. What you described is puppy hystrionics and while she may be a timid girl that does not make her any less worthy. The fact that you skipped directly from scared to fear aggression shows your lack of experience. A huge percentage of scared dogs never make that leap. Since I deal with poorly bred GSDs I have seen my fair share of scaredy-cat young females and NONE of them ended up in any way aggressive.
I am sincerely happy that you made the decision to return her and I hope next time you think things through more thoroughly so that both you and the dog you choose can have a better experience.

Occupy Dog St.
Barked: Sat Dec 29, '12 2:13pm PST 
We got her at 4 months. the person who purchased her only had her for 3 weeks. We had her around 5 weeks which makes her 5 months. Whats the contradiction?

When the night- closes in I will- be there
Barked: Sat Dec 29, '12 2:53pm PST 
Ok that clears that up thank you. So in 2 months this little one changed homes 3 times(4 really if she went back to the breeder between) and you think she was fearful. Gee I wonder why. Cold, really cold.

Barked: Sat Dec 29, '12 4:08pm PST 
I think returning the puppy is in the best interest of all parties involved.

I agree wholeheartedly with Fritz.

Now is not the time for you to be bringing a dog or puppy into the household.
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