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Aggression AFTER neuter

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 6:45pm PST 
CM is dominance down....onto side.

Monks of New Skete popularized alpha roll, which is belly exposure. The New Skete text continues to sell very well and a lot of GSD breeders recommend it to this day.

I don't think there are any bags over any heads. Seriously. If we are talking dominance downs, pack leader, etc., that's CM. The OPs comments looked to me like a blend of Monks and CM....belly up (Monks, alpha-ism) and the "let the other dog sniff," which is more CM.

Better to explain why things don't work rather than, IMO, rant that CM is a blithering idiot who doesn't know junk from junk. Do you want to say, "wow, Kye, you are an idiot." That's essentially what you are saying. Kye, you are an idiot and those well behaved dogs you have are actually stinking rotten messes and you are a dog abuser! I know you don't think/feel you are saying that, but I think that is how it comes off.

Some people follow CM successfully and the right way. Some people follow the Monks successfully. It's not going to help to just rant about a person. Rant about a method. Why alpha roll is no good. Why dominance downs are no good. Why....why whatever you want it to be.

There's stuff to be stressed here, good info of fallout from wrong mindset approaches. That would be the point. The wrong mindset. Some people who follow CM would never think of doing a dominance down on their own or do a lot of tsst'ing. They exercise their dogs, work on keeping them relaxed and happy, and if there is a behavior problem consult a professional. I don't lose sleep over those guys. I have read their mindsets on his forum on they are o.k. Others I worry about, but they are employing risky methods. There, I argue the methods. Which would be the main point of concern any way.

Arguing method still gets it done, people don't get offended, and there is no resorting to hyperbole that "trainer x" only ruins dogs, when it is clear that isn't always the case, which immediately makes the listener view the speaker as unreasonable. It's the methods that do damage. Easy to underscore and explain and still accomplish one's goal, without another runaway thread that CM is an idiot who doesn't know what he is doing, at which points a lot of minds just shut off from listening.
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 9:54pm PST 
At no point did I personally address Kye or her dogs.

I said alpha rolling should not be practiced, and those who do are, frankly, bad trainers.

I think that's fair. That is, after all, my opinion too. One which was ONLY brought up because OP is alpha rolling her dog to the point where he has obviously become reactive.

Its an open forum, they asked for opinions, not sure what more you want here.

I'd love to here if the OP is a Monks fan. Really, legitimately would. I'm SUPER interested in hearing about that, actually.

Because it seems like to me (here's an opinion again), that the people who come here alpha rolling their dogs and forcing them to submit to being sniffed by strange dogs and all what have you, AREN'T picking through texts on training theory.

You know the old phrase, "when you hear hoofbeats..."

ETA-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSSHMff4y6Q

@ 2:36

Semantics.

Edited by author Fri Dec 21, '12 10:02pm PST

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 10:44pm PST 
Mulder, you know I like you, but Kye seems to think that you did, in a post addressed to you directly. I would have been a real budinski to have observed anything between you two otherwise.

In terms of the OP, I don't necessarily think that it needs to be a direct book or a direct tv watching either. It's far more of a scary world out there than just that. Plenty of street talk, or half baked pet trainers just regurgitating what they have heard. Some breeders, also. If CM decided to turn into a Bahamian hermit tomorrow, people would still be using P , alpha rolls and whatever else have you. There's this odd thing....not saying you, but generalized....that if he were to hermitize himself that everyone would flip onto Victoria Stillwell, which to me is sort of daft as he is far from the only one out there not applying a strict R code. Plenty of sites (trainer, breed, you name it) to say "pack leader," "dominant," "have to be boss" and so on.

I looked at your 2:36. If that was for an alpha roll, I did not see it. The dog struggled at some point during which she was showing her belly, but CM released pressure once she was on a dominance down. It's splitting hairs, I don't think there's a world of ideological difference, but there are two different schools. Belly exposure is not CM. It doesn't have to be the Monks either, but it did root from them, minimally.

If the alpha roll is replaced by "CM is an idiot"....plenty of people are still doing it. He's not the lone source, and in terms of the wolf theory-slash-belly-exposure stuff, the latter distinctly defined in the OP, it isn't what he describes himself as doing. He wants the dog flat and non resistant. He does not use the term alpha, roll, and seldomly (and fleetingly) does he refer to the wolf.

Soooo.....if he is not using those phrases and basis's, then who is? People y'all aren't thinking about. I myself always laugh in a depressed and bemused way that he "popularized the alpha roll." If people are using that term, or referring to belly, or referring to wolf....it didn't come from him into the ears of babes, for he does not use those terms. It came from somewhere else, which is apparently nothing anyone hones in on shrug

If you want to think that's semantics, that's fine, I am not saying I disagree. But I AM saying that if you think that's where they are getting their terms, then you are wrong. He does not use them. Alpha, roll, belly. Not from him. So, from where?

Edited by author Fri Dec 21, '12 10:47pm PST

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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 12:06am PST 
Perhaps, says I, the OP might come back and tell us all where she learned the technique, and that might clear the air. Or make it more turgid. Well, whatever. She knows the fall out from belly rolling/side pushing/ignoring CM disclaimers/picking up a new skete book/listening to street talk OR just pulling the idea out of thin air, now, and hopefully will be able to fix it. And that's the important thing, yes? wink
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 12:33am PST 
Yes! Not a good method. Contributed to the problem! Sounds to me at this age as a phase that needed direction, now will need a little more effort due to whatever negative associations caused. But if this is the worst problem your shepherd gives you before he is two....well then, congratulations laugh out loud I had a GSD who tried to pull someone's face off with his teeth round about this age!

I feel some need to do a teenage dog thread! wink
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 12:39am PST 
A teenage dog thread, eh? Now that's not a bad idea at all ...
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 6:48am PST 
I would just like to say here quickly, that OP never used to the term "alpha roll".

I and a couple of other people did, because that's what was going on.

Be fair to me here, from that percentage of people you DO worry about Tiller, could you honestly not see where something like the video I posted could lead people down the wrong path? We can sit here and split hairs about the more subtle details of what's going on in that vid, but can we at least agree that the "at risk" population here can see that, take it for what it APPEARS to be and try to replicate it?

The people who try and replicate these sort of things are already pretty misguided, why are we giving them the benefit of the doubt that they took the time to ponder over the differences of "alpha rolling" and "dominance downs"?
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 8:28am PST 
A little bit OT from the original question, but how much does testosterone affect aggression or maybe I should say drive?

It seems to me most police--military working male dogs are not neutered. Can females of the same breeding have the assertiveness, courage to be a patrol dog? Would a male not be able to do the job as well if neutered? Or is there some other reasoning behind it?
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 10:56am PST 
@ Mulder, I agree that most don't study training theory. The point is that amongst the many schools, included are the "school of idiots giving street advice" or "school of your uncle Ned who always had nice dogs," and that while CM has had impact he is far from the only place in town. I know this will sound bizarro, but I hadn't even heard of the dude prior to Dogster shock The OP mentioned belly rolling, and that's not him. That's the Monks, and/or everyone who went with that ball. The wolf thing, too. The alpha thing, too. The "be the boss" thing, too. Those come from somewhere different.

@ Gus, some working dogs are indeed neutered. That's not a problem, but if you neuter early you impair drive development, so you would do it when the dog is more than two. Once the drives are developed, neutering isn't always a bad choice, for sex drive can be a distraction.

In terms of females, firstly there is some degree of dog sexism. But other reasons, too. One of the more obvious ones is that a really nice female, in a breeder sense, is a lot more valuable than a really nice male and often would be retained for breeding. Also, until they are fixed, they are moody, was does hamper training. Finally, males tend to be the higher drive. Females, however, tend be higher in social politic, so toughness isn't a question in that context and they often have good drive....and with drive, the "sky's the limit" isn't exactly an objective. You want good drive, but the more you move past that, the more you have a chance that it will complicate training, making the "higher drive" sex somewhat moot. Males also tend to be bigger. Some people, however, swear by female workers.

One of the things I can tell you about teenagers, and it doesn't really matter the species, is that this is an era that partners bravado with anxiety. There can be a second fear imprint stage that can occur up to the time is a year and a half. I always take it to the point of logic, in explanation, that it's a loaded time, where establishing oneself socially is important, but at the same time the mature adults are more fleshed out physically....they are stronger....and also far more experienced when it comes to challenges. So you have to seize every opportunity you have to assert, and/or run like the dickens at the first sign of trouble or being overmatched. The end result is that a teenager can be explosively bold or strikingly skittish.

It's OT because it's a horse thing, Gus, but a really striking moment at one breeding farm I worked at there was a junior stallion (who was three, and as you would know that means quite young) and a senior stallion, who was those huge crested, mellow-but-NOT-nice laugh out loud, eighteen year old. The junior stallion unfathomably cleared his paddock fence one day when everyone was off at a show. I was alone. He had crashed through the broodmare pasture and herded them out, and as he was galloping about spied the senior stallion in his round pen and proceeded, in a really scary visual, to try and scale it to get in and fight. I was worried he'd get his legs stuck between the planks and just stood there aghast. It was incredibly violent. All the while, this senior stallion was just grazing. But once the junior had gotten both front hooves braced over the top rail, the senior dude stopped munching, looked up and stared at him right between the eyes. And with that, the junior sped off like a bat out of hell laugh out loud It was really striking to see. One of those moments that really had me "get" that teenage brain. Seemed like a good idea at first for he was power drunk at the moment and seemed to have an advantage, but it took the most minor, but supremely confident, gesture from the big hoss (and WOW was he a tough horse!) to make the youngster totally abandon his very aggressive mention and run for his life.

That moment really influenced me. It made me get that be they lunging like lunatics or skittish like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs, teenagers aren't really serious about anything they do....they are just environmentally testing and on some massive hormonal cocktail. It will level. Keeping them from bad experiences and keeping them from having the behaviors be too practiced and thereby potentially become habitual is the main point.

Edited by author Sat Dec 22, '12 10:59am PST

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Dylan aka- Dilly

frisbee- s rule
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 11:49am PST 
thinking I wonder what he thought he would do if he did get in with that older stallion.

prolly become a world class jumper getting the heck back out
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