Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M
I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty | 
 | | Barked: Sun Dec 2, '12 10:15am PST |  | |  | | These collars are available at Petco, PetSmart and Dr. Fosters Smith. Giant names that tend to bring in both the novice dog owner, the more casual dog owner, less enlightened dog owner as well as the dog savvy. That's important to remember. If this was some very fringe thing, I would get this more. What I don't get is silencing the proper use of this tool, for as I pointed out in an earlier post, a very typical conclusion is just to zap your dog when he does something wrong, and if the dog were to show pain at that time, perhaps that's just the way it is supposed to be? Afterall, this is something they bought at a pet loving place, right? That's what they might well think. As the Guest above me relates.
Lou Castle can admit your training style works well, and even when I was arguing with him before, I never felt he was saying it is the only way. He WILL say no method will bring you better reliability, and I think that is fair because it is self evident. When dogs need to be trained to certain commands when their lives are on the line....such as SAR, hunting, snake proofing as mentioned....the ecollar is commonly referred to.
In terms of Peekaboo's comments, I can answer that in part, just because I have been in warring debates with Lou before.
I recall this line...."they're not YOU!" he would sternly say to me, and that was getting under my skin, in the "damn, I know he's making a good point and that is ticking me off!" sort of way  Other methods do work. There is a method mentioned on another thread as to how to condition your dog to associate only positive things with him name. It includes a minimum of 5,000 times reinforcing with food. Some people may find that a bit much. I am a puppy coach and tell my people that by age three, he will be perfect. Some people can't deal with that either. Every day, another bond breaks, another dog gets dumped at a shelter for this reason. Due to my own ethics, I knew the point he was making and got it all too well. An un-or-poorly trained dog, around age two, is the quintessential shelter dump. Just because that wouldn't happen to MY dogs....what about them?
This is why I put up that behavioral case. It was an occasion where only the ecollar would do. The trainer had four days. That was it. There was no method that could have offered that pace. None. P or R. And it's much the same with basic pet training. I have never...not even back when I was debating with Lou....felt he was saying they were the "only way." Those who say he insists that aren't reading closely enough as I said I won't use one. Ever. Does he have problem with this? Does he argue this? No. Does he doubt that my dogs are well trained? No, I wouldn't think so. But does he think my dogs were trained as quickly or reliably as he could have coached me to do? Um, no on that, too. I don't have a problem with that. I don't need to be "the best" in that way. If there is an easier, quicker or sounder way, if it distances me from my miracle moments, I really don't care. Am I assuming some risk to my own dog with that attitude? Yes. I am aware of that. But I am a good dog manager.
My friend Duncan has an article coming up on the might Garo Alexanian....he is Armenian  ......who has come up with a very successful approach of preventing shelter surrenders. People who arrive, fed up and overwhelmed. What they need are resources and answers. Perhaps ecollar training is something that can be proposed within that framework. Because they are not me. They need answers, as in yesterday. People don't like that trainers who use ecollars often will guarantee their training, but they do. No one else does. No one else can. That doesn't mean I'll use one. I like my method. I like the journey and experience. I also don't mind having an utterly unreliable fifteen month German dog, because "when he is three, he will be great."
Lou was wrong about agility, which I knew. But I think a difference there is agility dogs typically adore what they do. SAR dogs also get very into work mode, and therein can be a problem. That when I was told, by SAR friends, to get off my high horse, and that if I had some way to breathe life back into their dog, then maybe I'd have a platform for my strong opinions. Until such time, they told me to bother off. I got their point. We have a member here, Trigger, who hunts with her dogs and had a dog bleed out, die, in her arms due to a failed recall. She now uses ecollars for recalls. When a hunting dog is on the make, that's not on a level with an agility dog on his course. You are, with a hunting dog, asking him to click off massive drive. That's pretty dense. It's why ecollars are so oft referred to. If your agility dog goes off course, he doesn't end up dead. That's the difference. That and the kingpins of agility are herding breeds, who already have that wiring. Massive adapted prey drive with immense self control.Edited by author Sun Dec 2, '12 10:31am PST
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For those who object to this method, all I can say is that it is a discussion about a tool. Obviously, it is not very popular on this site, but it can be effective when used correctly-just like any other tool. If you are against it's use, then don't use it. I find this topic interesting and can see that there is interest in learning if it will be effective in certain arenas.
When I explained to him that that was NOT how you used them, and explained how you were supposed to use them, he was horrified at what mental damage (not to mention pain) he must have done to that dog. That is what happens to DOGS when people don't have the knowledge to use this tool correctly.
