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Ecollars : An Intelligent Discussion

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Maggie NAC- WV-N TN-N- CTL-3 RE

Tunnel Suckin'
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 1, '12 10:32pm PST 
That dog has an excellent memory and due to numerous run−throughs on that course, remembers it. Change one obstacle at the last minute and the dog would still run the old pattern.

Not a chance that the dog ever saw that course...and that is not how agility works - people rarely ever see the same course twice even if you have the same judge after many years. This handler has many other videos of her dogs doing plenty of distance runs at a Champs (that is similar to a National for this venue).

I also don't find these kinds of run to be rare as there is usually at least one (normally at three or four handlers) per every NADAC trial I go to, I know how this lady trains her dogs as well as working with others (positive and food based with great results and usually pretty quick considering the time it takes to do anything in agility). If you look at her channel she has many more videos with good distance and precision.
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 1, '12 10:32pm PST 
That dog has an excellent memory and due to numerous run−throughs on that course, remembers it. Change one obstacle at the last minute and the dog would still run the old pattern.

I beg to differ with you there, Lou---in agility competition, the handler walks the course alone without dog, which is made up by the judge for each competition on that day---they can get pretty inventive and tricky.

Dogs get one shot at the course--a mistake is an NQ. There's no practicing the course, there are no repeats or second chances---the dog never knows what's coming. A skillful course designer will put obstacles that are not next look lined up like they are--- in tantalizing fashion that would lure a weak team's dog false. Methinks you have grossly underestimated the sport of agility . . . . if you think dogs get the opportunity to memorize courses.

This run looks different from typical, where the handler is normally on course with the dog, because it is for bonus points (not sure which agility org. it is)-- it is meant to show off the best of the best.

The whole challenge and the reason it is "bonus" is it showcases the uppermost level of team work between handler and dog . . .. . that they can indeed navigate an unknown (to the dog) course at a distance.

A lot more impressive when you know the dog doesn't know the course, isn't it?

(Although, again, if any dog could gain an advantage by being able to read and understand the printed course map, it would be a BC wink
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 1, '12 10:34pm PST 
We were posting at the same time Maggie! way to go
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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 1, '12 10:36pm PST 
No. My 'probably never' was more of a sarcastic 'probably'. I solely use positive reinforcement and do not use such methods of training, nor do I condone them. I simply said I was interested in learning more in hopes of perhaps being enlightened to their use. While I am open to their use under CERTAIN circumstances, I am NOT open to their use for ALL circumstances. I would never, ever use one on a fearful dog, and won't ever use one on a fearful dog and certainly WOULD NOT on Maya.
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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 1, '12 10:56pm PST 
Just got home from working the Catahoulas on cattle & then Bones on hogs....I don't know all that much about ecollar use, and I'm interested in what your ideas are, Lou, regarding what we did with them today. For example - on a herd of about 10 cattle (is that big enough to be a herd? wink ) we had 3 green dogs. Now, Catahoulas are headers, not heelers, so they should work the head of the cattle to move them to where they are supposed to go. One dog got a stim (on level 1 setting) because he decided to flake out & go roll in aromatic cow dung - the stim seemed to refocus him and he went back to business. There was no jumping, yelping, cowering behavior - he just got up & went back to business. Another dog got a stim because he cut out a calf from the herd & started getting hard with it - & that's a major no no - stim seemed to refocus him, and send him back to managing the larger cattle. The third dog got a stim because she decided to stop paying attention and go lollygag around - the stim again, seemed to refocus her. I didn't see any of these uses as punitive to the dog - no dog ever yelped or showed discomfort other than doing the canine equivalent of "oh, yeah, I'm supposed to be doing THIS". None of the dogs received a stim over 1.5 on the setting (I have a Tritronics Sport Combo G3). Now, Bones did receive a stim on the 1.5 level because he did not want to come out of baying the hog - that low level stim was effective at breaking his focus & he came out. One of the things I'm curious about is the comment about how using the ecollar in the way Rusty described is not what you would recommend - but what are your ideas about the way it was used today on the working Catahoulas? It seems to be the only way to affect a change in behavior at the range the dogs were working the cattle. I don't know how much anyone here on Dogster knows about working Catahoulas, but they definitely have a mind of their own - which they need, given the work that they do. Generally, you are not going to freak them out - the good ones are bred to herd cattle, hunt wild/feral hogs, protect the home, etc. They tend to make decisions on their own because of this. I guess I'm just interested in your thoughts - what could we have done better, did we make mistakes in what I described, etc.

Edited by author Sat Dec 1, '12 10:58pm PST

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Maggie NAC- WV-N TN-N- CTL-3 RE

Tunnel Suckin'
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 1, '12 11:06pm PST 
Lol! You said it better than me 'Gus smile

This is from NADAC and the bonus line is starting to draw the crowd to trying them more often. I run a dog that has amazing distance, but is difficult to work close in as she is more verbal and higher arm position focused than how one has to run a tight and tricky course. She is brilliant though and is learning how to work with me as a team (I am handler #4 we have only been working together for 4 months so it has been rough).
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 1, '12 11:57pm PST 
But you said it more succinctly, Maggie! Doh, I should have known it was NADAC by the hoops . ... eta: Maggie, I sent you a PM.


Tunnelers at distance

Here's another example of the same handler and dog, Amanda Nelson and Try at Tunnelers . . . .. the dog is so fast you have to watch a few times.

She uses verbal commands---note the 3rd tunnel is a tight turn from the logical visual line. Here she uses a verbal command to indicate the turn--I can't make out her exact word, it sounds like, "tight?" as in tight turn maybe, it could be "right" . . . ..

At other points, when the dog needs to make a directional change it's "switch, get out," supported by the upheld hand. When the dog is to continue along the logical line of tunnels, she indicates there are no directional changes by saying, "go, go, go" . . . .


As a team they make it look deceptively easy, but hopefully here it's a bit more clear that it is well-timed handler direction, NOT the dog knowing the course.

Edited by author Sun Dec 2, '12 12:10am PST

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Tyler

Whippy- The- Whipador
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 2, '12 6:54am PST 
And now hear comes the kind of attitude from you Lou that i've seen on the other sites. It's your way or the highway.

I'm not interested in your testimonials...i notice that's something you advertise a great deal in all your forum discussions.

I was hoping to hear a balanced view on both sides of the fence here, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I tried to remain open as possible during this discussion but i'll sit this out from now on because i'm not into biased discussion.
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Member Since
11/27/2012
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 2, '12 7:37am PST 
Earlier I wrote, "That dog has an excellent memory and due to numerous run−throughs on that course, remembers it. Change one obstacle at the last minute and the dog would still run the old pattern."

Maggie WV-N- TN-N CTL-3- RE CGC wrote, "Not a chance that the dog ever saw that course...and that is not how agility works - people rarely ever see the same course twice even if you have the same judge after many years. This handler has many other videos of her dogs doing plenty of distance runs at a Champs (that is similar to a National for this venue)."

Augusta,- CGC, RN wrote, "I beg to differ with you there, Lou---in agility competition, the handler walks the course alone without dog, which is made up by the judge for each competition on that day---they can get pretty inventive and tricky.

Dogs get one shot at the course--a mistake is an NQ. There's no practicing the course, there are no repeats or second chances---the dog never knows what's coming. A skillful course designer will put obstacles that are not next look lined up like they are--- in tantalizing fashion that would lure a weak team's dog false. Methinks you have grossly underestimated the sport of agility . . . . if you think dogs get the opportunity to memorize courses.

This run looks different from typical, where the handler is normally on course with the dog, because it is for bonus points (not sure which agility org. it is)-- it is meant to show off the best of the best.

The whole challenge and the reason it is "bonus" is it showcases the uppermost level of team work between handler and dog . . .. . that they can indeed navigate an unknown (to the dog) course at a distance.

A lot more impressive when you know the dog doesn't know the course, isn't it?


Yes it is more impressive. I was completely wrong in my assessment of agility and this dog in particular. That IS excellent control at a distance. And it typical of what herding dogs do at a distance as a result of their natural instincts. In any case, my statement still stands. it's extremely rare to find a dog in any sort of competition where precision, reliability and control−at−a−distance are rewarded, at the top of the podiums in any national level competition who has NOT been trained, at least in part, with an Ecollar. Such trainers and such performances are extremely rare.

Regards, Lou
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Member Since
11/27/2012
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 2, '12 7:38am PST 
Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie" wrote, "No. My 'probably never' was more of a sarcastic 'probably'. I solely use positive reinforcement and do not use such methods of training, nor do I condone them. I simply said I was interested in learning more in hopes of perhaps being enlightened to their use. While I am open to their use under CERTAIN circumstances, I am NOT open to their use for ALL circumstances. I would never, ever use one on a fearful dog, and won't ever use one on a fearful dog and certainly WOULD NOT on Maya."

I praised you for having "an open mind" Are you now telling me that you don't have one? LOL.

And BTW NO ONE "soley [uses] positive reinforcement." It's impossible to train a dog without using punishment. But that's really another discussion.

The fact that you'd never use one on a fearful dog shows that you've been influenced either by others who have made this statement, by what you imagine Ecollar training to be like, or a combination of the two.

Wondering did you watch the video that Tiller supplied of the children being shocked?

Regards, Lou
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