GO!

Saying 'No'

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 10:23pm PST 
I think you've kind of restated my point, G2.

. .. it's all some kind of food to the dog, but if a person considers "kibble only" acceptable because it's the dog's regular food, then in my mind they've put a major limitation on the effectiveness of using a food reward as a motivator by not having the option of offering something more spectacular to the dog . . .

. that's the part I don't get . . . why kibble is o.k. (not harmful to use) but anything higher value is not o.k.. . .. as if the word "treat" is the same as "junk food".

I was just wondering if that was the reasoning behind a person's not wanting to use higher value rewards than kibble--because of being worried about giving the dog too many junk calories . . . or if there was some other reasoning behind it that I didn't get.

But maybe someone can clarify, since I came a little late . . .shrug

Edited by author Thu Nov 29, '12 10:28pm PST

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Lupi

I\\\'ll do- anything for a- treat!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 10:25pm PST 
Wow G2-unethical? Really? To allow a dog the opportunity to do something they enjoy, only to follow it up with something else they enjoy? Yeah, sounds downright amoral!

Although it seems ridiculous to have to write this, apparently it's necessary for me to assure you that I would not allow my dog to starve!

It's funny, because I've seen people criticized, many times, for using treats to "bribe" their dog. Yet when I say I use kibble, I'm viewed as cruel for expecting my dog to work for food! Which is it? A bribe or a paycheck? Can't have it both ways...

I don't always have the time to hand-feed Lupi. Sometimes, I'm sick or super-busy and she has to eat out of a dish like a normal dog. And she will; trust me-this dog will not turn down food! But she doesn't prefer it that way. She always sits, expectantly, waiting for something way more fun to happen. I usually give in and grab a few from the dish, get her to do whatever trick she's into at the moment, and reward her before I leave. Or at the very least, I'll throw them around the room for her to "hunt".

Whether this is because of her strong prey drive, or because she gets to spend more time with me, or just because she finds dish-food boring, I don't know. But there is no question as to which method of feeding she would find more "cruel"
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 10:37pm PST 
Sorry, Lupi, I didn't mean to make it a point of contention . . .

Of course if your dog works for her kibble, that's fine . .. . I just got the impression and was wondering you were dead against anything more high value than kibble . . . .

Gus would work for a piece of kibble for instance, but she's beside herself and literally jumps to a command when she knows there's a bit of turkey meatball (which I make myself to control what goes in it) for her . . ..
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Lupi

I\\\'ll do- anything for a- treat!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 10:39pm PST 
Sorry Gus, I was posting at the same time as you, so didn't address your question.

My personal feeling is that whatever the dog finds rewarding is an excellent reinforcer. Mine likes her kibble and Doxies have a tendency to get fat, so I use mainly her regular food. I also like to use a lot of environmental rewards, which are calorie-free! I do use higher-value foods, like cheese, when the situation calls for it. But the lower the calorie the reward is, the more often I can use it. Agility classes, normal leash-work, practicing OB-I use kibble. A visit to the vet's will warrant a "real" treat.

I should clarify too-Lupi still has regular "mealtimes" in addition to extra training sessions. That is, she gets fed twice a day at about the same time each day. She works for it then, as well as during special training sessions (agility class, etc)
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 10:50pm PST 
Well that's good, Lupi! way to goway to go You're not such a horrible monster afterall, are you? laugh out loudlaugh out loud

I know what you mean about having to watch the weight! Gus gets only one real somewhat small (for a dog of her size) meal a day to allow for the fact the she gets food rewards later throughout the day.

Ach, I hope I didn't offend by even asking--that's what I get for typing past my bedtime . . .. flowersblue dog
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Lupi

I\\\'ll do- anything for a- treat!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 10:50pm PST 
Gus, we keep posting at the same time!
No need to apologize-I didn't mean to sound contentioussmile

The problem with having SUCH a food-motivated dog is that she can go a little nuts if the reward is too high value! I remember attending a basic obedience class one time and we'd been asked to bring soft treats. I followed the instructions and ended up with a dog who was so intent on earning those stupid treats, it was embarrassing. She offered every behavior she could think of, then proceeded to bark at me for the rest of the class. I switched to kibble and still had the most focused, intense dog in the room. Minus the frustrated barking.
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 11:04pm PST 
That sounds familiar! But I think Gus's barking was because she had to wait while the other dogs were having their turn . . . . She was impatient to do her performance. laugh out loud My instructor just kept saying wait her out, ignore her. It was horrible because it was a small room. . . and my instructor is soft spoken . ..red face and Gus would be barking right through her talks.

Finally, I got the bright idea to put a magazine in front of my face so we couldn't have eye contact, and really pretended to read it. It worked like a charm! She gave up with a big sigh and dramatically laid out on the floor so everyone would notice how utterly bored she was!

This year I'm happy to say, she hasn't uttered a peep in the same class! She still does the dramatic full out lay downs and sighs though . . .laugh out loud
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Lupi

I\\\'ll do- anything for a- treat!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 11:20pm PST 
Haha-smart idea with the magazine!

When we go to any classes now, I have to make sure I feed Lupi right before, and give her a good walk. Then she'll be calm enough to learn. Also, I'll put a kibble down in front of her and ask her to wait while any boring talking or wait-your-turn stuff is going on. That way she has something to focus on and won't give me the laser-beam eyes as much.

Ok, I'm really going to bed now. WAY past my bedtimesmile
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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!
 
 
Barked: Fri Nov 30, '12 5:24am PST 
"Wow G2-unethical? Really?"

Just a different point of view, Lupi, not something personal against you. There are those that see an appropriate correction or saying "no" to a dog as abusive, are quick to point out their views on this, and cannot see why or don't care that the words they use to describe their opinions are offensive to others. This is the same sort of thing - several people have posted that they find doling out slivers of a dog's basic meal to use as training "treats" cruel. You don't agree, and find this viewpoint slightly offensive, as if you'd really do something to hurt your dog. Believe me, I get where you're coming from.

Edited by author Fri Nov 30, '12 5:40am PST

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Lupi

I\\\'ll do- anything for a- treat!
 
 
Barked: Fri Nov 30, '12 5:43am PST 
That has nothing to do with anything I've said.thinking

Ok, you edited your post while I was typing, so thanks for clarifying that you were indeed trying to make the point I thought you were trying to make.

Kindness to your animals means nothing if you can't also be kind to your fellow humans. To call me cruel and unethical because you feel others have insinuated the same about you is not kind. I have not, on this thread or any other said that saying "no" is abusive to a dog. In fact, I admitted to using it regularly, in both normal conversation and an interrupter.

Edited by author Fri Nov 30, '12 5:56am PST

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