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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Tuna

"Small fish with- tons of fight"
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 1, '12 5:53pm PST 
Oh and as far as the clicker training goes, she didn't do very well with it. she is a rescue and as weird as it may sound was actually frightened by the clicking sound. We do crate her and she doesn't ever potty in her crate. I was told the crate should be big enough for her to stand and turn around but no bigger than that or else they would potty on one side and sleep on the other. So I believe she has the right size crate.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 1, '12 5:59pm PST 
Clicker training does not require a clicker. Any unique marker will do.

And if she likes her crate, you should really go back to potty training 101. Whenever you can not 100% supervise her, she should be crated (with something wonderful to do). As soon as she comes out of her crate, right outside. If she potties, 1 hour of free time. If not, back in the crate for 15 min.

Keep a journal of when she eats and when she goes and where she goes. It may help you see patterns.

Tether her to you when she is not crated.
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 1, '12 7:55pm PST 
Smokey was startled by the noise too, and it seemed unnecessarily difficult to try to change a sound he didn't like into a positive association. I bought the iclick and he does very well with that.
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Alva BH

I ordered the- best dog for me- & got her
 
 
Barked: Fri Nov 2, '12 2:33pm PST 
I found the rewards and housetraining article that was asked by Lobo and Smokey and try to refer it shortly.

A 4 month old mittelspitz bitch was on her way to be housetrained when her new owner (an eperienced dog enthusiast and professional dog trainer, says the little box after the text, the magazine is about clicker training and reward based methods only, no punishment/aversives) decided to speed up her training with rewards. She already knew to pee on papers and the owner rewarded that few times. Walk often kind of training was also utilized. But what did the dog actually learn? She peed on everything left on the floor and atthe places the papers had once been. The family stopped leaving items on the floor and the situation was back to normal.
Then the owner wanted that the dog rings a bell to get to their balcony (apartment house) and toilet there (personally, I don't understand what kind of people want to use their balcony as a toilet and I would not be very fond if my neigbour's balcony would smell like rotten dog pee). The dog learned quickly that she was supposed to pee on the balcony and also got the bell-ringing. The operantly trained dog offered other behaviors on the balcony, peed before ringing the bell or made a small puddle and expected to be rewarded so that she could make another puddle and get more rewards.
Well, the owner didn't reward for small puddles and it was fixed. Now they put more effort in walking her (the balcony was supposed to be only backup) and thought they had a trained dog. But peeing indoors still occurred. The dog had learned that making a puddle was one behavior among other tricks to offer when she wanted something. When the family ate something that was also used as her rewards or she liked she offered tricks and then also peeing. She also peed at a room door when her owner had closed it and the owner realized the dog somehow connected the situation with the balcony training.
Well, because the dog was trained operantly all the way she faded unrewarded behaviors soon, like, she only offered peeing only a couple of times if she didn't get rewarded. But this could be frustrating if peeing occurs in every new situation where it has not been faded.
Referring ends.

I didn't say you can't use rewards in house training, just mentioned that you must be concerned what you're actually training. This trainer did not mention cueing the pees in any case so only cues to pee came from the environment (paper, balcony, context (food available)). I don't know how adding stimulus control very early would effect this kind of training. But anyway, it can be useful to teach one's dog to pee on command. I also do not know how much the dog got rewarded for indoor pees in the beginnning (intentionally or unintentionally). Like, could the situation be different if there was not that balcony episode and no rewards for peeing on the papers and self-made puddles were rewardable only in the park.
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Fri Nov 2, '12 9:44pm PST 
I didn't ask for your article, but it is enlightening as a cautionary tale about what happens when you're inconsistent and reward pottying indoors. I can't imagine a puppy who managed to pee on "everything left on the floor," was being very well supervised, they used multiple, changing potty spots, including the balcony and pads in multiple places indoors, expected the dog to go out by herself, and tried to spontaneously add a bell, without her ever, at any point, being completely potty trained. It sounds like they kept adding new tricks in effort to find some magic bullet that would make her potty train herself so they wouldn't have to be inconvenienced. I don't care if you're a professional trainer or the queen of Persia, what puppies need is a dedicated potty spot, absolute supervision, a strict routine that involves taking them out 15 or 20 minutes after they eat or have a big drink, once every hour or two, and any time they circle and sniff without immediately lying down. The vast majority of dogs, given good management and the combination of being interrupted and rushed outside when they try to potty indoors, and being praised and rewarded for going outdoors, begin to understand what they are supposed to do within days or weeks. The key is to always give them a little less freedom than you think they can handle. There are probably a few responsible uses for puppy pads, but I think the vast majority of the time, they're a mistake. Young puppies tend to rip them up anyway, older dogs shouldn't be left alone for long enough to need them, and dogs of all ages are confused and set back by learning to potty indoors.
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Lobo

"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections
 
 
Barked: Sat Nov 3, '12 12:47am PST 
Alva, the papers. Instant confusion. That would definitely lead the dog to believe that peeing indoors was okay and something to be rewarded.

I agree with Smokey, also. It sounds like they just kept adding new things, without ever really teaching the dog where to go. She never learned that ringing the bell meant go outside. Rather, ringing the bell meant pee, which meant reward. Something on the floor means pee, which means reward. You see?

You're right; you have to make sure you're giving all the right signals. But that's with *any* training; you can't just spank a dog or tell it no for peeing indoors. And you can't let it pee indoors "but only on this piece of paper." And you can't just toss it out when it needs to pee, because... Why should it?

You need to send clear messages. "Peeing right here in this spot earns you rewards." If you're clear, you shouldn't have to worry about dogs offering peeing as a behavior.
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Alva BH

I ordered the- best dog for me- & got her
 
 
Barked: Sat Nov 3, '12 6:15am PST 
I agree that this trainer was probably making a mountain of a molehill. Or she wanted to brag with her training skills and/or tested what happens when she adds rewards to housetraining. But I think she knows what consistency means, she just did not think where the dog connects the rewards. Pee on paper became pee on anything on the floor and pee was also one trick to try when treats were around.

I may have written a bad referate. It was not supposed to be understood like that. I trust the trainer knew what she was doing and was consistent with her training, she just did not think what she was actually reinforcing and that was also what the article was all about (the title of it was, freely translated: "What did I actually train for my dog?"). And the puppy was pretty smart, learned quickly what leads to a reward and what not (she also faded unrewarded behaviors quickly).
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