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Pulling on a Lead

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Jocie Anna- Dorkus

Miss Spitfire
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 3:24pm PST 
Just because they are a family unite it does not mean that there is not a pecking order. Also you conveniently forget the many dogs who have become dominant in the relationship and as a result harmed someone. Again when the method is used correctly there is no harm to the puppies kneck. If you hear that a few dogs a harmed and And abused while using this method than you can not assume that it is the method. It was not carried out in the correct manner it was intended. Not everyone does it exactly right and that is why you ask a professional who actually has experienced it being performed the right way. I have never and will never be someone who harms an animal and I sure as heck am not doing so now. -_- she is not beaten or abused and is very happy dog. Again assuming that all dogs that go through this method are beaten and scared. There will always be people who give the majority a bad Rep. In fact there is an Akita in my obedience class that his owners tried for years to train him using other methods under other trainers and he constantly attacks his owners and has to have a muzzle most pf the time and he thinks he is alpha. The dog isn't happy and neither are the owners because he is not submissive and he snaps at them.
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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 3:29pm PST 
Sadly, Jocie, you have been grossly misinformed by about canine behavior. Submission is something that is OFFERED - never forced, and clearly, you don't know anything about wolf packs if you're following the old alpha based theory. The VERY PERSON who brought 'alpha' into the training world went back after years of research and APOLOGIZED FOR BEING WRONG.

Do you SERIOUSLY use a choke chain on a four month old Papillion? naughty

To say it doesn't CHOKE a dog, when that's the very IDEA of the collar, is denial in itself. It doesn't always release immediately and can quite easily become tangled, which is why it's not used as a regular collar to begin with and is never supposed to be left on the dog. Martingales are much more appropriate if you're going that route, because they have an END to which they can tighten so you can set it so it DOESN'T choke our your dog. But y'know... Keep using it on your little puppy.

And Ninja hit the nail on the head. A wagging tail DOES NOT always mean happiness or relaxation. They can wag their tails during stress, arousal, aggression, most other behaviors, and it's usually combined with other body language behaviors that clearly, you haven't picked up on.

You DO NOT NEED aversive training collars to train a dog. And to use them on a four month old Papillion... Omd..

Your dog is not challenging you left, right and center. My dog isn't challenging me when he leans on me - he wants attention. My dog isn't challenging me when he walks in front of me, he's excited to walk. Seriously...

And to say we couldn't crate our dogs - BULL... I taught my dog to LIKE his kennel by making it a positive thing. I taught my dogs that me leaving = them getting good things like stuffed kongs. And why do you keep comparing dogs to humans and other animals? Because you have nothing else to make a point with?

Your trainer is using outdated methods. You can successfully bond and TRAIN your dog using positive methods that keep her perfectly happy. Do you not read the posts around here? There are several people with dogs with championship titles(which really has nothing to do with it anyway), that use positive-based training only and no aversive methods, but clearly they don't know A THING, right? Ali brown doesn't know what she's doing, nor does Victoria Stillwell, or Dr. Sophia Yin, or so many of the others positive reinforcement based trainers. But y'know, your trainer knows BEST, you know best and you know better than... Oh what, at least eight people that have already responded?

So tell me, how did I train my BEAGLE(a notoriously stubborn breed that's more focused on their nose) over 40 commands and proper manners with people, in and outside of my own house. How in the world did I manage THAT without a choke collar or aversive methods? Please, oh great one, teach me your ways, I'm so curious as to how I could ruin the relationship and bond I've already built up with my dog, just by swapping training techniques to those which you use. Please, oh great one, tell me how I could rehabilitate aggressive dogs over the years and gain their trust by CHOKING them or stressing them out more?! hail

I'm oh, so curious.

OH.. and... Also you conveniently forget the many dogs who have become dominant in the relationship and as a result harmed someone. Seriously? Yes, because dogs are out to get humanity and dominate us and take over the world. Absolutely. NOT. They didn't HURT anyone because they were 'dominant'. Dogs have hurt people from FEAR(attacking when they're scared because they can't flee), from experience(had bad experiences and learned that they had to protect themselves from people), and SO MANY OTHER REASONS. Most of which isn't from being dominant. They don't guard their food to dominate you, they guard it to protect a valuable resource and can be taught that you're safe around their food. I rehabilitated my FEAR AGGRESSIVE Rottweiler who would lunge at and snap at strangers because she was SCARED of strange men. Why? Because she had been alpha rolled, she had been hit and she was trained through aversive methods to be a 'guard dog' and instead, became fearful. I taught her that humans were good and to be trusted and she learned to LIKE letting people in the house and to enjoy pets from strangers. My foster dog was aggressive with people because he didn't trust them - he had been beaten, starved, etc so he guarded resources, and he attacked when he felt threatened because people like you taught him that 'growling' was bad, even though it's their ONLY way to say "I'm not comfortable right now."... He wasn't trying to dominate. And you know what? Several people went to emergency clinics for the bites he gave them, to get stitches. By the time I was done with him, he would bark instead of bite, and he would sit instead of lunge, and he got adopted by a wonderful family. To say they were trying to dominate when they simply didn't know they could trust is a load of crap. Also, many people over the years get bit by trying to break up a dog fight because the dog redirected, not because he wanted to show YOU who was boss. big laugh

OP - a front-clip harness is a really fantastic tool. You can also go onto kikopup's youtube channel by searching her username and find some great lessons on loose-leash walking - they're based on positive reinforcement and making your dog WANT to walk nice for you. A properly fitted Halti can work great too, IF used properly and attached to a collar, or while using a double leash(one on halti, other on collar or harness) to make sure the dog doesn't hurt themselves. Please keep in mind with all tools, to introduce the dog to them first through positive reinforcement, such as rewarding when they put their snout through the nose loop, so they associate it with good things. smile

Edited by author Sat Oct 27, '12 3:36pm PST

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Jocie Anna- Dorkus

Miss Spitfire
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 3:33pm PST 
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=vc6gduiU0hk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv% 3Dvc6gduiU0hk. If your so sure I'm being cruel this is an example of how ot is used correctly -_- see no pressure at all lol when used correctly there os no way it harms her mentally or physically.
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Bosley

Will Work For- Food
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 3:36pm PST 
Jocie, I looked up your "trainer". I did find a Guinness world record for one of his dogs. It was in the 1970s for conformation - nothing do to with high level obedience. I actually couldnt find any info on his obedience accomplishments. BTW, If your trainer has not changed his methods since the 1970s, that is sad frown

Edited by author Sat Oct 27, '12 3:40pm PST

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Lobo

"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 5:53pm PST 
Jocie, I highly recommend you learn about true dog body language. Just research the net for information about the dominance theory. I can even offer you some articles if you wish. Just pm me, and I'll be more than happy to supply you with information.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 5:55pm PST 
Asher's page has a video with the method I use for nice loose leash walking. It puts together several sessions worth of lessons. There is also a write up in his diary.

I would strongly suggest you NOT use a choke collar. When used correctly, it tightens right over the spot on the neck where the thyroid gland is located. There are plenty of other wonderful no pull devices that are not aversive, like the New Trix head harness or a Sensation or Freedom harness.

And BTW, the ARCHMX before Asher's name is APDT Rally Master Champion Asher.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 6:08pm PST 
http://www.dogster.com/video/418007/loose_leash_walking

Edited by author Sat Oct 27, '12 6:10pm PST

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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 6:37pm PST 
Adding this:

http://clicktreat.blogspot.com/2012/06/is-it-harmful-to-att ach-aleash-to-your.html
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 7:02pm PST 
Yeah, get a front clip harness like an easy walk or sensesation, or a gentle leader (I tried both, prefered the harness), or maybe a stop pull like kumfi makes. Of all three of these my dog liked the kumfi the most, it has soft fuzzy straps that hitch under the legs and lift, but each dog is different so try a few aids with some loose lead training.

I have used a check chain on a friend's dog I used to walk in the past and found the harnesses to be better, at least with my own dog. I never had the strength nor timing to correct the dog, who was large and much stronger than me. I used it because that was what he wanted used but frankly I used to struggle with that dog sometimes, and once he even pulled the lead from my hand and ran away. It does not give good control. Honestly I don't even bother with flat collar with my dog now, he always just wears one of his harnesses, I'm quite sold on them really!
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Lobo

"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 7:05pm PST 
I love that blog. I love it because it's honest, but kind. That's why I love Emily so much; she isn't harsh or rude, but still manages to be straight-forward and honest.

To the original poster: It's great that you have a harness! (: Front-clips work really well, and are pretty inexpensive at pet stores.
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