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Pulling on a Lead

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Farley

Farlekiin the- Dragonborn
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 12:07pm PST 
I don't see why you're comparing training your 10 pound dog to a 1,000 lb horse.

As for the humans wearing choke necklaces.. that's just silly. A necklace is not the same as a choke or prong collar and no one is forcefully inflicting pain and discomfort on them by attaching a leash and yanking it around.

While I can see the value of a choke or prong for certain dogs as a training tool, I cannot fathom why you'd use one on a tiny dog such as yours for basic training.

Also, dogs are not wolves, and they are not stupid. They know we are not wolves either, or dogs for that matter.
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Jocie Anna- Dorkus

Miss Spitfire
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 12:56pm PST 
When was the last time you guys actually looked at the obediece training method used on champions? I do not yank hard enough to damage her throat nor is this actually damaging to her throat. If you actually saw this method performed right it would be obvious that she is not hurt at all. It is meant to be a short burst of light pressure. Not cruel at all. Also when solid you last watch a video of the interaction between an alpha wolf and its follower? Do you think that the follower is stressed? Or unhappy? It is happy to please and greet his alpha. Don't forget that the tail is wagging and not between her legs. This body language means submissiveness not stressed. Seriously do you homework before assuming things. This method is not outdated it os also used for obedience champion everywhere not to mention ones recently put in the Guinness Book of Work Records. -_- you cant bust think about human psychology you have to look into the instincts to need a leader to be happy. Humans hats to be bossed but a canine thrives on pack nature regardless of human ideals.
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Farley

Farlekiin the- Dragonborn
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 1:14pm PST 
It is anthropomorphism to act like all dogs are trying to take over the world laugh out loud
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Bosley

Will Work For- Food
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 1:19pm PST 
First of all, we are talking about basic pet obedience - walking nice on a leash, not top competition type obedience.
Second, there are plenty of people with top obedience dogs who do not use choke chains or dominance based training methods to have success with their dogs. Denise Fenzi is a case in point.

When I am training, I want to see a happy, confident dog. A dog with flattened ears is not happy or confident. They are stressed. Call it submissiveness if that makes you feel better, but it is stress (yes, even with a wagging tail). Oh, and wolf pack behavior has nothing to do with human/dog relationships.

My dog has never been trained with a choke chain or dominance based methods. Ever. His ears are never pinned back during training. I like a confident and happy dog and that is my first priority in training. Yet, he currently has 22 performance titles - many which require a great deal of control and all required a lot of training. All earned without the use of force. Hmmmm .......
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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 1:23pm PST 
Are you really using a choke chain on your 4 month old papillon?
snoopy
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ATCH Tika RA- CL3

Mine?
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 1:26pm PST 
I know plenty of highly trained dogs that have never seen a choke chain or prong collar. I guess I will have to give up the hope of any obedience titles with my Tika as I refuse to train her with force and physical corrections thinking Too bad I already trained some utility exercises lol!

Ditto Farley though.
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Ninja PD SR1- RATS MBDCh- FM

Take That!
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 1:33pm PST 
Very recently actually, when you are studying more about behavior you need to practice observing it. When was the last time you studied the actual science of learning and behavior? body language and what it means to dogs? If you did, you would understand that a wagging tail doesnt not always indicate friendliness, there are other parts of the body to observe at the same time. That wolf packs are family units and not based on intimidation but cooperation, otherwise the pack couldnt survive.

Honestly, domination doesnt make sence in an evolutionary and scientific theory. Dogs do not strive to dominate their owners. Why, when man was selectively breeding for the dog, would he choose to breed for dominance? It only makes sence that the only dogs (or wolves) selected for breeding would be the most tame and cooperative indivudials, not combative individuals always looking to outdue their owners.

What are your accomplishments with your dogs? I honestly care less about this Guinees record trainer.

Edited by author Sat Oct 27, '12 1:36pm PST

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Jocie Anna- Dorkus

Miss Spitfire
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 2:40pm PST 
You guys are assuming that there is no verbal command that accompanies it. Also if stress is so bad. Than I would never leave her alone at home because she will become stressed as a result. And I cant put her in her kennel ever because she will become stressed. Oh and there can never be ANY kind of discipline at all for children seeing as how this will stress and worry them. Oh and stress of any kind is bad even healthy stress related to school work. If this method harmed the dog it would be punishable and yet there isn't. We as a nation are submissively to laws and morals so I guess we should just forget about following laws that keep our well being safe. If there were only praise for following rules and not repercussions for disobeying them than many more crimes would result.
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Jocie Anna- Dorkus

Miss Spitfire
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 2:46pm PST 
Not to say that a dog needs to follow laws like us, but that what she goes through is not any more inhumane than what our law system put on us. Again if a wolf goes after the alphas food that wolf os disciplined by the alpha.
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Bosley

Will Work For- Food
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 3:21pm PST 
I have a degree in psychology, and not one bit of that made any sense to me shrug However, I do know that there are many scientific studies that show that undue stress negatively impacts learning and memory.

You are talking in circles but really not saying anything. I suggest you expand your limited dog training and dog behavior knowledge and take some learning theory classes or seminars on dog behavior and body language. Perhaps even look for a trainer that does not believe in putting a choke collar on a puppy. Papillions are such happy, biddable little dogs, I would hate to see the spirit squashed out of your little guy.
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