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Oh it doesn't hurt when i use a choke chain. (Snide smirk here)- mostly a rant but opinions welcome

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Trigger

*Blackdog*		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 6:28am PST 
"Hmmm.. sounds like these folks would misuse any training tool. I don't see the collar as the villain here so much as their inability to read their dog and knowing when to intervene."


These were my thoughts too.
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Sanka

The ground is my- newspaper.		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 6:53am PST 
I agree Shane.

"Okay so do you know how to use that chain properly? Because stringing your dog by its neck isn't the proper way."

That comment also caught my eye. Whether you intended it or not, you directly insulted their intelligence as well as said to their face that they were stringing their dog up. That's not a nice thing to say, even if it was happening. They were actually participating in training their dog. They were actually attempting to try to coexist with the dog. That's not something I'd ever berate.

I think you relating to them with your dog not listening well and how you found clicker training helped was a good thing to say. But if they don't ask for more info on that, then leave it alone and let them be. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Yeah, it stinks seeing those things, but you have to put yourself in their shoes. If they saw you clicking and treating and thought that was a horrible thing and starting offering you advice on another method, you might not take so kindly. Especially if you politely tell them off and they leave with the comment of "well, shoving food in your dogs mouth or bribing your dog with food isn't doing it right."

You'd probably think them nuts and never want to try what they did simply on them being so rude.

I'm not trying to be mean, but what I'm trying to say is you can't be forceful of things, and you have to realize that clickers and treats aren't always preferable by people. Saying how it helped you is fine, and it might peak their curiosity. But if they don't ask anything of you, leave it.
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Twister

Love me.		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 7:32am PST 
I agree that it is the people and not the tool. I would also agree with Sanka that it probably was not the best way to approach them about the subject. It seems another who is also at fault (to me) would be the trainer, as the trainer was the one who taught them the way to use the choke train; and so makes them think they are completely right in what they are doing. It does sound like the GSD is going to have problems as a result of the way they are handling her. frown
I have seen choke chains being used incorrectly many times, but that is the handler's fault & not the tools. When my GSD mix was alive he became DA after being attacked by some dogs, and the only way I could handle him was with a choke chain; but you should only have to give a quick snap to get attention back and not be jerking the dog keeping it tight. That is wrong, and it will cause issues.
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Zephyr

1213425		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 7:35am PST 
Was there not a thread about how to tell people how to train dogs in the street that basically ended with most people saying "Unless asked, keep it to yourself"?

While it's sad the GSD is being trained by incompetence your own snide (whether intentional or not) remark certainly didn't further your cause. I'm not surprised they replied as they did and I think it was actually a lot of restraint for someone randomly coming up to them and telling them in not so many terms, they're abusing their dog.

Tools are not the problem. The people behind the tools are. Teach by example.

Here's the thread if anyone needs their memory jogged: How would you feel about some one approaching you with training advice?

Edited by author Wed Mar 28, '12 7:42am PST

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Dahlia

Gone, But Not- Forgotten.		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 8:13am PST 
confused Ouch. This was wrong on so many fronts. I have to agree with most folks here; unsolicited advice is not usually welcome. Since they brought out the dollar amount they pay the trainer, they think the high cost justifies what they do. Also remember that people only hear what they want to hear, in that they may have misinterpreted what the trainer showed them. There is a skill to choke collar use AND it must be worn correctly, so it will release. I suspect they are new to the dog world, do not know how to read body language, and are scared to let their dog be a dog.

ANY tool will hurt if used incorrectly. When used properly, it is just a check to remind your dog what you expect from them.
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Czarka, CGC- UJJ

Why walk when- you can run?
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 9:14am PST 
In the good old days, we would always use some form of choke collar for training. Again, it worked fine if your touch is gentle and you pay close attention to the dog.

I've trained with Charks in a couple of venues. In our GSD club, beginner/intermed ob training is uniformly done with prong collars. I'm not a huge fan... but the trainer seems to know what she is doing and it works well. I'll also point out that my local training club, where we do most of our training, would be just aghast at the thought of prong collars. No prongs allowed in the building. I live in multiple worlds smile

As so many others are pointing out, the problem here is not the tool. It WOULD be really interesting to understand what these owners see/feel when they look at their dog. They sound like new dog people AND new-to-GSD people. It kinda sorta sounds like they are a bit afraid of their dog... IMH(?)O thinking
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 1:31pm PST 
Czarka, I completely feel that "living in two worlds" vibe with my training circles too.

My agility/OB people are very much against prongs or other correction collars.
On the other end of the fence of course I have the people who put e-collars and prongs on a dog by default.

I've grown away from using correction collars for the most part- I just don't feel them necessary for Mulder anymore. His OB is to the point where a quick tug on the nylon is honestly all it takes, even in the protection training. I keep the prong in the car just in case the trainer wants me to pull it out, but as of yet we honestly haven't needed it.

And I admit that I get sick of seeing stupid people using inappropriate training methods. Just this morning I had Ridley outside of the local dog park to work on some impulse control and focus training. Another trainer was there working with a client too (actually sort of know him... very big on compulsion/dominance training). Woman had what looked like a shih tzu... who she would POP hard with the choke every time the dog would look away (being such a small dog, his whole body sort of jerked every time she would do it.... not pretty), and require it go back into a heel position.

I would NEVER walk up to these people and tell them what they were doing was stupid, even if I think that it was. ESPECIALLY considering this man is an actual trainer (meaning that this is his livelihood).

But that doesn't mean I can't be a bit of a turd and mess with them wink
I kept to about 30 feet away from where they were, whipped out the clicker, and started doing some INTENSE distraction work. Threw toys and balls and even grabbed a stick and starting banging it around on the ground and shouting, and Ridley never broke his down/stay. Click/treat for wonderful, SOLID Ridley behavior. Worked on some heel work, click/treat for beautiful Ridley heeling. Had a random dog charge the fence at the DP, Ridley started like he was going to react but came back to me first (!!!!!), click, BIG praise, lots of treats and a ball throw.

Finally after about 15 minutes or so of this the other trainer looked annoyed and walked off with the woman.

I never got closer than 20 feet to them, never approached them, never said one word to them..... and to top it all off, I honestly hardly ever use the clicker laugh out loud

Sometimes I just like to stir the pot.

Though I doubt I made a good impression on the trainer shh
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Lenny

Lenny -The- Wrecking Ball		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 2:12pm PST 
"Tools are not the problem. The people behind the tools are. Teach by example."

applause Well said, Zephyr.

It kills me when I see people using a tool incorrectly, especially when they say (often it seems boasting) that their training that they pay $$$ says it is best this way. Sad to think of all dogs that have been set back by such training. There are all kinds of tools for all kinds of dogs... but any tool can be used incorrectly some with more negative effects than others.

But I liked what I read in Dr. Watson's thread with a link to a blog post. It said "And while it's human nature to judge, I keep my judgments to myself." which I think is how it should be.
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Farley

Farlekiin the- Dragonborn		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 2:17pm PST 
Mulder applause I love it!
In my opinion that's more effective than going up and criticizing what people are doing wrong. Letting them see more proactive methods with their own eyes will hopefully make them think.

Farley used to be very leash reactive but he has GREATLY improved, using a clicker and positive reinforcement methods. Now, when we pass a reactive dog, he is perfectly behaved, focused on me the whole time, and the other owner usually starts jerking their dog around or yanking, yelling "NO!! "and scolding the dog, and I just hope inside they think about why their methods aren't working.

Edited by author Wed Mar 28, '12 2:18pm PST

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Lupi

I\\\'ll do- anything for a- treat!		 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 28, '12 3:02pm PST 
Ugh. I remember seeing a similar scenario at one of our dog parks a while back. This guy had a Pittie pup on a choke chain AND he would flip the dog on his back when the pup showed interest in other dogs. I remember wondering why you would ever bring a dog to a DP if you didn't want them to interact with other dogs.
It really bothered me, but I said nothing. If someone could be so cruel to their own animal, how might they react to a stranger?
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