How accurate are shock collars and other forms of positive punishment?

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Risa- W-FDM/MF RA- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog

Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 6:57pm PST


	Risa LOVES butt scritches so she'll take 'em!

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Theo

nom nom nom

Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 7:38pm PST


	Wonderful points Sanka, Trigger and Risa! And as for the "put it on yourself and test what it feels like" argument, that was the very first thing I did when I considered using an ecollar. Have YOU tried it? Education means being informed of both sides, not just what you consider to be the "right" side. Along the lines of proper or improper use, Karma, if you or anyone else would like to hear the method I used for two years, which did not leave sores, scars, psychological damage, fear or aggression in my dog, feel free to pm me. Unless there are requests for a public conversation on correct methods of using an ecollar, I'll leave that to the PMs as I feel that would only start more cyclical, polarized, unyielding debates.

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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt

Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 8:12pm PST


	okay- this is totally an innocent question, so please read it as such- When you try a shock collar on yourself, do you try it on your neck or somewhere like your arm? I am speaking out of having no knowledge because I've never used or felt a shock collar. But I know when I had electro-stim therapy done to my arm (when I broke my elbow), it felt like my muscles were spasming. I wonder if stimming on the neck would make you or a dog feel like their throat is closing? It wouldn't hurt, but it would certainly be scary. FYI- I am not anti-shock collar for people who know what they are doing, but I wish there was more training required before you could by one! I once saw a guy shock his Patterdale hard enough that he did jump up in the air.

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Zephyr

1213425

Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 8:22pm PST


	I've done both. No, it's nothing feeling your throat close. What you had on your elbow was a TENS machine. With a larger contact points (the big patches) and a conductive gel an e-collar could theoretically work that way but the points are just too small to have that kind of effect and it's ill-designed for that purpose. It's also a different feeling since it's over a much larger area. At the highest stim on mine it's sort of like touching an electric fence but shorter lived and not nearly as painful. Winter-time, ice and a barn inevitably means you're going to hit the hotwire at least once. I caught it on the back of the neck once and it was ridiculous but no throat closing. Edited by author Mon Feb 27, '12 8:23pm PST

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Trigger

*Blackdog*

Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 8:52pm PST


	Sarah - there are probably a million different opinions on that. Mine is that the idea of testing isn't as much about concern over what a dog might actually feel over what a human hopes they do (or won't). Think about it, how many people would find testing a flat collar on themselves pleasurable? How many people crawl into a crate to try to experience what their dog does? Do we worry about how it feels to go to the bathroom barefoot in the snow? Sleep and eat on the floor? Have their temperature taken the way dogs do? My dogs will get into some knock down drag out play fights complete with plowing each other over and taking each other down with wicked looking rolls involving their teeth. They sprint on gravel and the Labs will bust through thick whipping cattails just to plunge into frigid water. This is fun and pleasurable to them. It would be excruciating to me however, all of it lol No, the intent of an ecollar isn't to create pleasurable sensations, but it also doesn't necessarily have to equate to pain. Even if where ever a human tests an ecollar surprises with discomfort or even pain doesn't mean that'll translate exactly the same way to a dog. We all know everyone, human or canine, have different pain/sensory tolerances. Heck my SO cringes at lotion on his skin. The only thing that matters is how the dog perceives a stim. If they're naturally very sensitive one can safely assume an ecollar even at the lowest setting might not be the best tool. It's safe to assume if a dog freaks about grooming with a brush or walking on warm tar the sensation isn't going to go over much better. However, with a dog who has a higher sensory tolerance, who is particularly hard headed or is highly prey driven the sensation may be considered hardly an after thought. Even at higher levels. In short, perception is relative and the testing some rave about is in the end, completely pointless. The best way to determine if an ecollar stim is going to be perceived negatively by a dog is to know the individual dog and consider HIS tendencies.

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Theo

nom nom nom

Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 10:16pm PST


	Trigger, that's spot on with my opinion. For example, my dog was really soft when we were just in the house or in the back yard so we used the lowest stim. But as soon as he was off leash or on the hunt after a rabbit, we could turn the stim up to a 4 or 5 (out of 8) without him even noticing. This is because he was MADE to go to extreme measure to chase down and kill small moving targets. As his tolerance goes up, so would the stim until he refocused. Then it would go back down. At times like that, it was all about paying attention to your dog's drive and acting accordingly, just like any other type of training.

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Fireside's- Twilight- Princess

Nick Name - Balistic Missle

Barked: Tue Feb 28, '12 10:03am PST


	I was recently walking a dog with her shock collar on. She had previously had knee surgery and had been on crate rest with only slow walking and potty breaks allowed. The collar was there to proof the heal or easy command. She knows both well but after a couple weeks in the crate she was a little crazy. We couldn't take a chance of her leaping or jumping because she could tear the ligament in her knee requiring another surgery. I state all this because normally I would never have used the collar for a walk. However she was not allowed to run, jump, pull, do sharp turns or hills. Only straight flat slow walks with easy turns. Did I mention it was an 18 month old lab? Anyway I was stopped by someone who wanted to pet her. He commented that he uses a "Taser" Collar on his lab when he hunts! Calling it a "Taser" is a first for me!! I have tried the collar on me. I admit to trying it on my arm only. I never thought about trying it on my neck. Mine goes from 1 - 15. I use it on a setting that makes my dog go "Ooops sorry" Not "OH MY GOD" So the setting is different for each of my two girls. Zelda's setting is a 1 or 2. Chloe is a 9 or 10. With both I get the same reaction. "Ooops sorry" They are still goofy and happy and having a good time. Which is my goal.

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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt

Barked: Tue Feb 28, '12 3:26pm PST


	Thanks for your answers. Exactly what I was wondering. Trigger- I have climbed inside a crate, although I admit I did not lock myself in it for an extended amount of time! haha

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Member Since
02/21/2012

Barked: Wed Feb 29, '12 3:09am PST


	Shock collars sound cruel, but I agree that, when administered properly, will instill discipline.

my posts

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Lucille

I am the Sock- Bandit!!!

Barked: Wed Feb 29, '12 6:48am PST


	"Think about it, how many people would find testing a flat collar on themselves pleasurable? How many people crawl into a crate to try to experience what their dog does? Do we worry about how it feels to go to the bathroom barefoot in the snow? Sleep and eat on the floor? Have their temperature taken the way dogs do" To be honest, I have, some of those things not intentionally. Although my POV will obviously never be the same as a dog's, I take all of the information I can get to help me figure out what might work or not with an individual dog. I remember what it's like to have my temp taken that way...that's why I always warm a thermometer first. Dogs appreciate that and respond instantly to a handler that knows what they are doing, I have felt it in a spit second just receiving a lead. I've figured out some very important factors by just getting down on all fours and walking the same path a particular dog does every day, to be at eye level. I was a young kid, so you bet I was scoffed and laughed at, but it took me under two minutes to figure out why the dog was balking, correct it and move on. I don't forget those things, so they're all in the 'maybe try this?' kit. The canine sense of smell leaves me in the dust, ofcourse, but the more I study it and observe how a dog uses it in their approach, the better off I am.

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