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How accurate are shock collars and other forms of positive punishment?

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Sanka

The ground is my- newspaper.		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 6:27am PST 
Karma, at the dog park, a kuvasz got its lower jaw stuck under another dog's collar. The kuvasz panicked and because of his size, he was picking the other dog up, spinning around and choking the other dog.

I've seen dogs pull until they choke themselves with their own collar. I've seen people correct their dog by yanking the leash up and choking the dog. I've seen dogs get their collar snagged on things either choking them or just keeping them stuck in that spot so the dog panics to get out. I've seen dogs with sores from harnesses.

It's quite obvious from your photos that you use leashes and collars. They are tools that are potentially dangerous to your dog. By your logic, you and the rest of us are horrible human beings for using them.
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Karma

The Boss		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 7:10am PST 
They aren't my dogs and I'm not judging anyone. Besides, I don't use shock collars, prong collars, and the like.

The question asked in this thread is "How accurate are shock collars and other forms of positive punishment?" and the answer to that question is not very accurate, although I would rather use positive punishment methods than to use any of the negative ones. However, taken the fact that training or behavioral modifications can be best achieve using R methods, which is a scientific fact, not in training dogs, but in teaching humans as well, because learning is a behavior modification in itself. It requires all the sensual senses we and animals have such as sight, hearing, touching, and so forth, to engage in learning and/or changing behavior, but with animals, that is limited to their physical and mental cognitive abilities. One can psychologically affect an animal, which in this case, a dog, positively or negatively, depending on the method used. Again, I say, why would we need to use such devices on our dogs?

Remember something: Do you want your dog to come to you or do as you command, because it FEARS what will happen to it when it doesn't obey, OR, do you want your dog to come to you or do as you command, because it TRUSTS you? Using shock collars and other such devices may work by your dog obeying you, but it does it out of fear, resulting in more aggression and other behavioral problems later. Taking the time and patience to learn and understand your dog and how it thinks and learns, working with that in more positive ways, will help both you and your dog. Education -gaining knowledge- is key here, not opinion.

Edited by author Mon Feb 27, '12 7:53am PST

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Cain

Q.E.D., baby,- Q.E.D.!		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 7:54am PST 
Isn't Karma your dog? Don't you use a leash/harness when Karma goes on walks? Potentially dangerous.....

"Just think what you're doing to your dog every time you push that button. It's best to educate oneself of the pros and cons of using such devices."

Yes, it IS best to educate oneself - THAT part I agree with, and it looks like the people who have been giving you feedback have done that, and have tried to provide you with good information. Would it be better for Trigger's dog to be mauled by a bear, or one of my Catahoulas to be killed by a hog? Would it be better for the dogs who clear the birds from the runways to be smashed by a plane? Or the stock that's getting worked to be run to death? I don't think so. These are tools, as everyone keeps pointing out - tools that are helpful in a variety of situations when used correctly.

""How accurate are shock collars and other forms of positive punishment?" and the answer to that question is not very accurate, although I would rather use positive punishment methods than to use any of the negative ones."

Karma, what do you think negative punishment IS? Appropriately used P is VERY effective - does NOT cause any damage to the dog, is NOT psychologically devastating, does NOT damage trust."

"However, taken the fact that training or behavioral modifications can be best achieve using R methods"

Yes, we TRAIN using R - we all agree on that.


"Remember something: Do you want your dog to come to you or do as you command, because it FEARS what will happen to it when it doesn't obey, OR, do you want your dog to come to you or do as you command, because it TRUSTS you? Using shock collars and other such devices may work by your dog obeying you, but it does it out of fear, resulting in more aggression and other behavioral problems later. Taking the time and patience to learn and understand your dog and how it thinks and learns, working with that in more positive ways, will help both you and your dog. Education -gaining knowledge- is key here, not opinion."

Yes, Karma, education is the key here - would you like us to provide you with additional resources? You might want to reread some of the posts since it doesn't look like you're understanding what people are saying.

Edited by author Mon Feb 27, '12 8:05am PST

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Zephyr

1213425		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 8:01am PST 
"They aren't my dogs and I'm not judging anyone..."

But you do such a good impression of it.

Any tool when incorrectly used can harm a dog directly or indirectly. How many health issues in pets today are due to obesity? The misguided R-plus trainer will pack pounds on their dogs in short order. Meet Mabel, who has a torn ACL purely from her own weight. What a miserable life she must have had before rescue. We have no way of knowing of the e-collar injuries were from an experienced trainer, the same way we don't know how Mabel gained all that weight. We can speculate no on the first and 'inexperienced owners' on the second but frankly I don't feel like throwing everyone else in with them.

Dogs can injure themselves on crates. They can choke on their own food. They can jump off buildings. They can be injured in car accidents. They can drown in boating accidents. They can be killed in fights. They can die in simple surgeries. We do thousands of things a day with the potential to kill our dogs. With everything else there is to get crabby and sanctimonious about in the universe, I'm not going to quibble with someone taking the effort to proof their dogs on an e-collar.
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Squ'mey

too old to eat- any more KD		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 8:09am PST 
Karma says "although I would rather use positive punishment methods than to use any of the negative ones." Perhaps you need to learn what the terms really mean, because your statement contradicts the rest of your post. Positive punishment is adding something...such as a properly administered shock. Negative punishment is removing...such as withdrawing attention.
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Sanka

The ground is my- newspaper.		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 8:30am PST 
Education -gaining knowledge- is key here,

Yes it is, but it seems you need a bit more of it yourself. You don't seem to understand what tools are or that any tool when misused is harmful.

Punishment is SUPER effective. That is the fact of life. To suggest otherwise is ignorant. The question that it comes down to is is punishment necessary in that instance and do you morally find a certain form of punishment acceptable for that individual case.

I could proof my dog's recall using an e-collar, but I don't find it necessary for my situation, and I personally would not like using one. But I also know that others may need it and may be fine using one for their dogs. The idea for any tool is to rarely have to use it. People using e-collars shouldn't be shocking dogs into oblivion.

As pointed out several times before, that would be using the tool wrong. And if we go into that realm, which you constantly are, than we can point out the fallacy of every single device used on dogs, positive or no.
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Trigger

*Blackdog*		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 11:41am PST 
Some people refuse to open their minds beyond what they *want* to know. If one chooses to restrict their knowledge it can be easy to get frustrated, especially if their end of the argument is just insulting as all get out but how useful is that?

Most even semi educated in all things dog recognize solid and unfailing recall isn't just a game or fun trick to hope to aspire to gain someday. For some it's a life or death skill. Those choosing not to acknowledge that, well, they've either got a lot of learning to do or they know it full well and just refuse to acknowledge it for the kicks they get riling others who know better up.

It's not worth getting sucked in either way.



Until someone shows me a better way with my dogs running across the scenarios I and others have referenced here I refuse to respond further. Simply calling me a meanie head and villainizing a tool based on a circumstance of abuse isn't gonna ruffle my feathers. Non sense like that isn't worth it. I'd implore others refuse to
further feed any such ridiculous hype.



No matter which methods or tools one chooses to train their dog most people across the board know pencils don't spell words wrong, people do. Guns don't kill people, people do. And ecollars don't hurt dogs in and of themselves, people do.


An inanimate object is not capable of causing physical harm. Anyone that argues otherwise again, is not worth feeding into. Can't debate things that simply don't make sense.
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Risa- W-FDM/MF RA- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 5:22pm PST 
Karma, I would recommend looking at what the four quadrants are again.

Positive Reinforcement: The addition of something rewarding to increase the likelihood of that behavior happening again. Example: Dog sits and you give him a treat.
Positive Punishment: The addition of something aversive to decrease the likelihood of that behavior happening again. Example: Dog barks and you give him a collar pop.
Negative Reinforcement: The removal of something aversive to increase the likelihood of that behavior happening again. Example: Walking away from a fearful dog when he takes a step towards you.
Negative Punishment: The removal of something rewarding to decrease the likelihood of that behavior happening again. Example: Dog jumps up on you and you turn around and ignore him.

No one is arguing that you cannot teach a dog behavior using positive reinforcement. In fact, as many posters have stated, they use positive reinforcement training with their dogs. The main difference between people who use R+/P- mainly and those who use R+/P+ is in the proofing of behaviors. We all start in the same place.

Any tool can be dangerous in the wrong hands. That is clear. You should never judge a group of people based solely on those living on the extremes.
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Trigger

*Blackdog*		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 5:42pm PST 
Risa - wonderful ENTIRELY FACTUAL post.

Accurately conveyed information no side can logically disagree with.


Bum scritches for you, for what that's worth coming from me lol
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Trigger

*Blackdog*		 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 27, '12 6:35pm PST 
To specifically address a particular link that was listed earlier about a supposed ecollar injury...because I'm bored more than anything ha! The author of the article and site originator credentials were stripped for their obvious extremist, hostile and inflammatory nature.

The ONLY situations they reference as proof of failure are in situations where an ecollar should have NEVER been used (citing 4 month old puppies being taught obedience on ecollars and prongs - causing aggression, DUH, the second consult was for a fearful dog where he tried to sell the idea that a random guy came into the home and just stimmed the dog harsher and harsher until is screamed in pain and urinated, another DUH, next was for ANOTHER four month old puppy sent off for unspecified training and credentials listed and the dog came back damaged, UGH, the last was a typical pup whom he claims another random door to door ecollar abuser came into a persons home and stunned the dog with zero CCing and so hard it literally flipped the dog onto its back, seriously? Does anyone really buy this bologna???)

Additionally, they openly admit the studies they cite as proof the tool is damaging
were flawed via improper or no collar conditioning, improper correction timing and DEFINITELY use in situations where the tool would never be indicated for use.


All that, and then they actually put up the argument that that's why the tool ought to be BANNED lol.

Here's a bunch of lies, misinformation and manipulation of fact, now do my bidding and fight this fallacy of a war against an instrument of abuse and torture I conjured...WUF!!!

I think the IACP had it right when they suspended the dudes membership....yikes.
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