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How accurate are shock collars and other forms of positive punishment?

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Ginger

Feed me.
 
 
Barked: Mon Feb 20, '12 10:20pm PST 
Although positive punishment can work, this is a great game to show how inaccurate positive punishment is and its high probability for error. If it were REALLY accurate, then you would be able to dart the sheep right when they're leaving the flock in order for the sheep to associate the dart with leaving. If you don't score the highest time, then maybe the sheep was thinking about returning to the flock or something else not associated with leaving the flock by the time you were able to dart it, so the lesson likely ISN'T learned. Is it fair to punish the sheep when your timing is off and they likely won't associate the punishment with what you intend to punish them for? How about if you jumped the gun and darted a sheep for no reason? Is punishment really fair if you make a mistake and misinterpret a dog's behavior? If you were off on your timing with praise, then no big deal. There's no pain or discomfort done.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction _version5.swf

This post isn't made with the intention of starting an argument or even a discussion, it's made to demonstrate a point.

Edited by author Mon Feb 20, '12 10:22pm PST

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Trigger

*Blackdog*
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 7:16am PST 
Sheep aren't dogs.

Dogs aren't sheep.

There is nothing about the two that can or ever should be compared.


(You cannot state such opinions (especially such contentious ones) on a public forum (especially one like behavior and training on Dogster) and not expect subsequent discussion in the form of agreement AND disagreement. That's entirely the point of posting smile ).

To answer the question in the very title of your thread:

"How accurate are shock collars and other forms of positive punishment?"

Extremely accurate if administered correctly.

That's why I utilize them if the situation warrants it. That's why most people utilize them if the situation warrants it.

It's precisely because they work and with such astronomical success that most people I know use them.

Edited by author Tue Feb 21, '12 7:22am PST

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Zephyr

1213425
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:02am PST 
It's a forum... If you don't want discussion, start a blog.

And yes, when used correctly they can be extremely accurate. People with the right skill set and temperament can do wonderful and very precise things with e-collars. It's all in how it's used.
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Squ'mey

too old to eat- any more KD
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:10am PST 
While I do not use an e-collar, it can be extremely accurate when used properly.
Timing is important, but it is when using a clicker as well. If you c/t at the incorrect moment you are reinforcing a behavior you did not intend to. Thus necessitating more work to truly capture what you did want.
I agree with Trigger that sheep are not dogs & dogs are not sheeplaugh out loud
Public forums are public, and as such, if you invite a discussion then you must be prepared for dissenting opinions.
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Rusty

Champion PPH
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:12am PST 
ANY tool, when used correctly, is effective. Heck, you can put a prong collar on a soft dog like Rusty and not traumatize him if you do it properly.

Not asking for debate in B&T is just begging for one to start. laugh out loud If someone wants to make a generalized statement & not expect a response, they should post it as a status on FB. laugh out loud
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Tuvok

Toovy Doovy Doo- Ready and- Willing!
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:20am PST 
I have trained a few dogs with e collars in the past, but don't do it now because it isn't a shortcut by any means. I think they are handy for sporting dogs in the field and for deaf dogs when used on the lowest setting which is usually quite pleasant.

E collars can be very effective. The problem is that it takes a significant amount of commitment to make one work, more than many trainers are willing to do.

For normal training situations you absolutely must take the collar off every night to prevent irritation to the neck, charge it and put it on the dog first thing in the morning every single day for months and months and months if not years. You must have the transmitter with you every single part of the day. so there isn't any confusion you must be very consistent and only work on one thing at a time. You must use the collar on the lowest setting that is effective.

You also need to use drive training and/or train with treats and avoid using the collar to teach things, only to get attention.

Sloppy use of e collars will create a dog that is collar wise and may have fear issues. I remember it used to be said that if you train with an e collar you will ruin the first dog you train with it.
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Squ'mey

too old to eat- any more KD
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:49am PST 
" a great game to show how inaccurate positive punishment is and its high probability for error. If it were REALLY accurate, then you would be able to dart the sheep right when they're leaving the flock in order for the sheep to associate the dart with leaving."
Actually the game is more a test of reaction time. It says nothing about punishment..or its accuracy/efficacy. Apples to oranges? Apples to cadillacs?shrug
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Trigger

*Blackdog*
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:52am PST 
"For normal training situations you absolutely must take the collar off every night to prevent irritation to the neck, charge it and put it on the dog first thing in the morning every single day for months and months and months if not years. You must have the transmitter with you every single part of the day. so there isn't any confusion you must be very consistent and only work on one thing at a time."

Meh. I've never heard of collar conditioning or training a dog like that. I've certainly never used them that way.

(You also aren't supposed to charge a battery nightly or you stunt the ability for it to charge completely, every single one I know of will instruct you need to wait until the battery indicates it needs to be recharged)

That said it does take a level head and dedication to learn how to use properly.
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:58am PST 
I have sheep, and they sure don't think like/act like that game. For one thing, they don't run in a straight line, lol! big laugh And yet they are handled. And without darts, btw!

So if you are drawing your conclusions about animals and/or positive punishment from this game, your going to run into a lot of trouble in the real world.
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Sanka- I'll Miss- You

The ground is my- newspaper.
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 21, '12 8:59am PST 
Seriously...comparing sheep to dogs? In what universe is that remotely accurate? (oh the irony) Have you ever seen/worked with sheep? I doubt it or you'd see how ridiculous it is to try to compare the two. Heck, even people who haven't worked with sheep see how silly it is.
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