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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Duppy- Conquerer- ~*CGC*~
cesorship wont- silence my bark |
 | | Barked: Mon Nov 2, '09 5:00pm PST | |  | |  | | If I say don't think of red, my subject could think or green or blue or purple (or maybe even red because I focused on it). But if I want my subject to think of yellow, simply saying don't think of red is probably not going to get me there.
BTW, again, simply ignoring and standing still would be extinction, not negative punishment
I had to disagree here a bit. Yes, it doesn't teach a new behavior, but it might teach NOT to do a behavior. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is extinction and not P-. I agree very much with what Dr. Watson said a few posts back. They are not the same, but P- can lead to extinction.
For example, a dog that barks for attention, most likely is barking because at some point early on, it was reinforced one way or another(most likely by the person) for the barking. So lets say that person's way of reinforcing that barking was by yelling "STOP IT!!" at the dog. While not pleasant, it still gave the dog what it wanted: attention- so it learned to keep barking in the future for attention.
At some point, the person decides to ignore the reinforcement, turn eye contact away from the dog, turn away from the dog should it try to initiate physical contact, and never again makes any verbal or physical recognition of the dogs barking-attention-seeking behavior.
Wouldn't this be P-? The person is taking away the reinforcer- themselves. Just because they are not literally separating themselves from the dog by going in separate rooms, or whatever doesn't mean they aren't taking away something. They are removing all recognition of the dog's behavior, which is what the dog wants. They are taking away something that makes the behavior more likely (P-)
Now, when this becomes consistent, and the dog phases out it's barking for attention, the behavior then becomes extinct. Continuing the practice of no reaction to the dog would be extinction. P- is becoming extinction over time until the behavior is consistently extinguished. A trigger, or recurrence of the behavior sometime after it has been extinguished, is an extinction burst- At which time, the negative punishment is ever most crucial. If you bring back the reinforcer, you start all over. So if the dog resumes its barking one day, even eye contact could start the process over.
But you see, the extinction process started with positive punishment.
Another example would be counter surfing. Suppose you used to always keep your Tupperware collection on your counter. But your evergrowing and curious great dane pup is now tall enough to get allll the way to the back of the counter where your delicious array of plastic tubs is kept. The dog never seeks out anything else on the counter, like say, your fruit bowl, or your sugar and flower canisters. Just the tupperwares. Removing the Tupperware doesn't teach the dog that counter surfing is wrong, or teach the dog a new behavior, like "don't jump on the counter" or "when I see the counter I think no" or "off".
What it does teach is that countersurfing is no longer rewarding. You have removed what has made the countersurfing behavior more likely. The dog may continue to jump on the counters for a period of time, but eventually it will learn that there is nothing tasty and plastic for it, and so the behavior will burn out-extinction. (unless it begins to take interest in the fruit bowl, in which case you either need to remove that too, gate the dog out of the kitchen, or actually teach it with another method not to jump on the counters.
Now with fearful dogs as the OP said, I think it depends on what has caused the fear/what the dog is fearful of. Like shayne said, if the dog is afraid of people, taking away physical contact with people (ignoring the dog or separating the dog) is actually rewarding. So you do need to be more creative with P- in that situation. Really what it comes down to, if you are working with a fearful dog, is that the situation needs to be closely evaluated and considered.
Why is the dog behaving in the unfavorable manor?
What has happened to this dog in its past?
What is it afraid of?
What is causing it's fear?
What can I take away without reinforcing the behavior, or negatively affecting the dog and increasing the fear?
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Duppy- Conquerer- ~*CGC*~
cesorship wont- silence my bark |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 4, '09 11:45am PST | | | | | | BOL cain! I think after surviving the teenage years it finally sunk into my mother that if she tells me NOT to do something, especially without reason, I became obsessed with the idea of doing what she said "no" to.
oppositional defiance disorder? ehh not that bad in my teen years, but I wonder if dogs can have such a disorder as oppositional defiance?  | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Wed Nov 4, '09 8:38pm PST | | | | | | Don't know if it's necessarily a "disorder", but there certainly are dogs that are independent thinkers/decision makers and want to do what they want when they want, regardless of what else is in the picture. There also are the "spoiled brat" dogs - I'm sure we've all known some of those, but I wouldn't consider them oppositional, since once they understand that their program is no longer functional, they tend to stop being little snots. | | | | |
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