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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!


Negative punishement and frustration/anger/stress

   
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Laila

Beautiful girl		 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 12:38pm PST 
Please discuss your thoughts and share your knowledge/experience on the issue of the use of negative punishment and the possible pitfalls (frustration, anger, stress) for example in very fearful/reactive/stressed dogs.
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Charlie Pete

Nope....not- me....I didnt do- it! 		 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 1:12pm PST 
I am so not an expert on this topic....I just do the best I can. But I think experience gives me a little bit of insight. I was a slow learner and used to buy into the dominant owner, encourage submission approach to dog training. Hey...I didnt know any better. I always had easy dogs that didnt really need any training so never really had to apply much anyway. Then along came my magnificent boy Charlie Pete who has challenged me and made me think (and cry and worry and....). He is a fearful boy and I'm fairly sure my early training attempts with him did nothing but make him worse. He would get in a frenzy, I would try to suppress and oppress and he just got more frenzied, so I would get frustrated and angry and try to be more dominant. We just weren't getting anywhere. He is finally turning around a bit but only after I learned (mostly on dogster) that there was a better way of doing things. I dont coddle his fearfulness but I do support him enough to let him work through it. I give him opportunities where he is safe to learn that all is okay rather than forcing him to see that is it by flooding him (well I'm doing my best on thsi but sometimes make mistakes...see my entry from yesterday). I'm so sorry, Mr Pete, that it took me so long to catch on! I dont know that he will ever be friendly with other dogs, but I hope that eventually he will have the confidence in me and in himself that he can move through life wtihout fearing for his safety.

Edited by author Sat Oct 31, '09 1:15pm PST

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Trigger

Tennis ball- OBSESSED!!!		 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 1:15pm PST 
I use negative punishment often in training. I personally haven't seen any correlation between it's use and any frustration/anger/stress in my dogs. A bit of confusion initially, but that's about it.
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Chino

I put the- energizer bunny- to shame!		 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 1:52pm PST 
I hope this makes sense...but negative punishment was an utter failure with reactive Chino. When I adopted her, she was assessed as being a very dominant dog. Logically then, I figured I had to be extremely harsh with her when she did something bad so that she would learn her place. What ended up happening was a war that ended up in bites for me and Chino becoming even more reactive that she probably would have been. An example would be, I scruff shook when she did something bad, she bit me hard if she wanted to herd another dog but she was on leash. Since our relationship became a battle of wills, we didn't really communicate and ended up just fighting however either one of us knew how...her biting increasingly hard and me punishing more. Now that we've switched over to positive reinforcement techniques thanks to dogster and our trainer, the change in her is evident. She's a lot more calm (three hours of exercise and she turns off pretty much) and tractable. I encourage her positive behavior with treats and remove reinforcers for her bad behaviors. We still have work to do and it goes up and down...but I just say negative punishment increased the stress/anger for Chino. Thankfully she's young and we have lots of time to reboot our relationship...but I still wish we had started with positive methods in the beginning.
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Mississippi

throw me a- frickin' bone- here
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 1:56pm PST 
As I understand it, P- (negative punishment) is the removal of something to decrease a behavior. So if Miss is being a dork and jumping on people, the people leave. I think this is acceptable.

As for P+, positive punishment, that's adding something to decrease a behavior, like hitting a dog for barking. I can definitely see how that would breed more aggression. If someone yells at me, I'm probably going to yell back, know what I mean?
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Becky RNCL

I support DSL on- Dogster!
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 2:02pm PST 
Years ago I trained Becky with an e collar. The training that our trainer instructed us in was classic negative reinforcement. Apply repeated shocks until the dog performs the required behaviour, then stop the shock. During the time we were training with the collar not only did Becky's reactivity get worse but it was the first and only time she bit a person (a stranger that she wrongly felt was threatening me.)
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Trigger

Tennis ball- OBSESSED!!!		 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 2:04pm PST 
That's how I understood it also Mississippi.

Chino what you described that you did to your dog initially was not negative punishment. What you describe with the scruffing is positive punishment:

"Positive punishment (P+)
Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of) a behavior. For example, jerking on the leash to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behavior of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted “booby traps.” "

In turn:

"Negative punishment (P-)
Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of) a behavior. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room, you apply P- by removing the attention he wants."

http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary
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Trigger

Tennis ball- OBSESSED!!!		 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 2:07pm PST 
Again Becky, what you described with an ecollar is positive punishment.

I question why any trainer would use an ecollar to try to train a dog out of a reactivity issue...and how on earth they would even go about trying shrug

That's never what they were designed for. If a trainer doesn't know how to use one as it was intended then it's no surprise things ended so badly. I hope you discontinued using that trainer further.
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3

Learning is- changing what we- do
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 2:08pm PST 
I probably use about 15% negative punishment when I train.

I think you have to be very careful to be sure you are staying with P- and not turning it into P .

Example: At class, if Demon melts down, he is removed from the situation, usually put in his crate for ~30 seconds, then gets the chance to try again.

It is not going in the crate that is P-. I am very careful to keep the crate a good place so it always has good stuff in it.

It is the loss of the ability to work that is the P-. Behavior - Meltdown, Consequence - losing the chance to work.

And it is the loss of something he likes. Demon loves to work.

But it could be really easy to turn that into P by adding a scolding or reprimand for the behavior, even interjecting disapproval.

Are some dogs so sensitive that even a consequence of removal can fall subject to the pitfalls of punishment? I think so.

One of the things I have been doing to avoid using P- is substituting an LRS instead, but you need good timing for that.

ETA What Becky is describing IS R-. The handler applies the shock before or as the command is issued and turns it off when the dog obeys. So while saying the "S" in "Sit", the handler presses the button. When the dog's butt hits the ground, the handler releases the button. R- . The behavior is sit, the consequence is the removal of the shock.

It's one of the reasons I really try to avoid R-. The aversive must be applied before or as the comman is given.

Edited by author Sat Oct 31, '09 2:12pm PST

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Dr. Watson

My infamous- teaching sofa!- :D
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 31, '09 2:20pm PST 
Actually I found that negative punishment as practiced in the sense of ignoring unwanted behaviors worked quite well in my dog with separation anxiety. When this wasn't followed up by the bf, the dog became confused. So consistency in negative punishment seemed to be the key to reducing unwanted behaviors such as excessive attention seeking (pawing, whining) which were part of his anxiety.thinking After all, negative punishment is one of the best ways to weaken a behavior, whereas positive reinforcement is better for strengthening a behavior per classical operant conditioning. thinking
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