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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Sheila, AAD,- MR, JCH-Br,- SCH-S
I'm so glad the- puppy is- gone....!!! |
 | | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 5:05pm PST | |  | |  | | Oh dang: just wrote a lenghty response and now everything has vanished... %$$@!
In short: I agree with Asher on how to respond in a training situation: desensitization, shaping, conditioning. I 100% agree.
But there is times when you need to act quickly to a potential dangerous situation.
For example when walking with my dogs and a big stray dog approaches us fast. Not funny. I then make myself big, turn my bully dog's head away and at the same time take a few steps towards the other dog. Usually works and they back off. But that's what I call dominance from my side.
(sorry, my original response was more elaborate...but I gotta go). |  |  | |  |
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M
Too Much Is- Never- Enough...I'm A- Giant! |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 8:22pm PST | | | | | | I am talking to Becky!!!!  I am sure you are one great trainer. But before I respond to you....I just have to say this OT thing. Elephant seals are not heirarchical. They are a harem species. The females are free to come and go as they want. They pick the beach, and the point is for the male to grab the best beach and defend it. He will evict any other male at that time. You overthrow him or he will beat you off the grounds. So that is not a heirarchy. Chimps or hyenas are very interesting heirarchies to study as they are such intelligent creatures both and it is through their complexity that some interesting nuances of heirarchy can be found.
ANYHOW....Becky!!!! I totally agree with what you say. I hope you did not misinterpret my statement. But I do think there is the general aim, and then there is the real life uniqueness of situations. I would think someone who comes to you in some part, even if there is something else they believe in, is thirsty to learn. A non believer sort of aching to be a believer. I will always....as in always, ALWAYS....try to educate pet owners on positive based training. It is effective for what the companion owner would seek, it is low risk, and it fosters a greater understanding for and compassion towards dogs.
But situations are unique, and training will always be varied. I did adopt a dog to a fellow from Canada who absolutely adored CM. I talked with this man for a very long time. He wanted a very shy girl. His method of handling his dogs was lovely. He already had managed two behavioral dogs out of shelters, they had absolutely thrived with him, and he was willing to drive from Toronto to PA to pick up a Louisiana dog....a lover of Dobermans and since losing his senior thirsty for another shy Dobie. This is not a man I am going to lecture training theory to or try to convert. I mean....real world now....why??? He had a great head for how dogs were put together, a great history, he was a great interview, he was in LOVE with training and had taken the right inspiration. Not all do....no doubt - Iam still trying to recover from some Dogster talking about alpha rolling a Cocker puppy for being "dominant"  ....but this is a complicated world, people are individual, life experiences form ideologies.
I, in example, am not a crossover trainer, but I incorporate many styles into how I train and will gladly break back from how I myself would prefer to train if it suits the dog. That is what I care about. When I started to do rehab, I went R /P- all the way with that, because of its safety. I would incorporate a more flexible style only on a dog I knew like a book....as in raised from the ground up. I know of a style....R /P-......that is often effective and in any case has very low odds to bring harm. But with all that said, it never, ever, ever will change that my PREFERENCE....as in for myself....will be to have a dog work out of a drive to please me. That is where I want to be, that is where I have been, the richness of the relationship fills me like little else, the breadth of life it offers to my dogs sets a huge bar for me. It does not *have* to be that way, and with some dogs, it cannot be. It can be little bit of a pipe dream with Am Cockers at times, it is laughably fantastical with a Dachshund, and it is absolute poetry with a German Shepherd. But for me, when it hits it is as good as things get, and when I can see it is getting me nowhere, there are no problems adjusting to whatever it is that suits the dog best. I think generally, when you have crossover trainers (meaning pros) oftentimes it may have been the struggle of not reaching clients or having clients misapply training theory, and when it is the individual owner crossing over, usually that will stem from needing a training they could better connect with. For me, I started off with a great trainer. I have had twenty years of my own dogs, and none of them have been anything but model citizens I could trust anywhere and had very full, thrusty and happy lives. There is no way any training debate would ever make me question my approaches....my dogs are my feedback. Now granted, I hold myself to a high level and not everyone does. My very first mentor....a Koehlerite I might add.....always impressioned on me to backtrack when training wasn't going well and to look in the mirror. I do, whereas "blame the dog" would be a far more common reaction. That I never will deny.
But too, there is this sense of fantastical reality sometimes in these debates, and for that I put on my rescue cap. Some people don't care. They want it effective, they want it fast, and that is IT. They do not care about theory, science or any other matter. They do not care if there is a better way. They got a dog, they want it to behave, and that is IT - they want what works and that is ALL they care about. And if they don't get it, that dog ends up as my next project.
These are not people who want to invest in their dogs. To assume that everyone does really is a critical mistake.
ANY training that works is valuable training. And that is not said as a breedist dog lover, but as a shelter/rescue dog lover. I know in my heart of hearts that some here on Dogster know that, but STILL want everything but R /P- to go away for the harm factor from misapplication alone. I am not one of them, for EVERY training has its niche....that is more my all breed self. The occasional freak outs, challenging the necessities of no bed/no couch rules, in example, thrust forth opinions that run at odds with the overwhelming majority of the breed's community. Is the recommendation that people junk breed experts and mentors and align with some who knew one dog 'x' and he did fine? That never seems to sit well with me. Akitas are alpha. Not ALL, but that is what you breed for. Taz knows that. And people seem to have a lot to say to Taz not realizing that there is probably NO BREED MORE INFAMOUS for reacting very, very poorly to the use of force. So I don't even know why he gets argued with. The mere fact he has Akitas and has for many years basically certifies he does not have a heavy hand and knows how to be a leader and avoid the pitfalls of dominance obsession. Were he not, he'd been pinned on the floor by his dogs.
I think everyone has some form of training they identify most with. Some sort of love match. It usually suits them, their life experiences, the sorts of dogs they are on and the expectations they have for them, and offers a fluidity of success that keeps them going. But I do not think ANYONE is not richer for not understanding different forms of training, even if they never intend to use them. I do think it makes you richer, and I always will. Maybe many of us may bristle at dominance-minded training, but some people seem to believe in it highly and thrive with it. Rather than trying to come up with reasons for why something cannot work when it clearly can, I prefer to at least pick their brains to understand why they believe in it as much as they do. If they have a calm, tail wagging and obedient dog at their sides, I will always seek to know that answer.
The bottom line with these articles is that they continue to occur, one after another. Ok. Been there, done that. Why not an article written by an opponent to dominance-based training as to how and why it DOES work. Because it does or people wouldn't be doing it. It is really a black-and-white matter - if training wasn't successful, it could not sustain itself and thereby incessant articles against it would not have to be written. There would be no point. That there IS a point, to me, is a matter worth exploring....again, not for any generalized use, but to expand my own personal training comprehension and knowledge. And to explain WHY ultimately, would be a more valuable article, increasing the odds that people who use it are applying it fairly and correctly.Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 8:29pm PST
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Chandler
Code name:- Farmcollie |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 8:29pm PST | | | | | | I'm a bit confused here.
If you get access to the published study that this article is talking about, it says that aggressive behavior in feral dog packs is mainly seen over territory and mating privileges, and that there does not seem to be a formal dominance hierarchy as seen in captive wolf groups.
The authors studied a group of 19 neutered males kept together in an enclosure at a shelter/rescue. I don't see that it is very analogous to a feral pack of dogs, or a captive pack of wolves in an enclosure where they can't get away from each other. The dogs being studied were all male, there were no females, and all of them were fixed. Plus, I can't think that the rescue would not separate more assertive dogs that wouldn't get along well in the group. I'd want to know how the rescue picked the dogs that went into this enclosure.
If the authors were trying to compare domestic dog behavior to either that of captive wolves or free feral dogs, I think their sample is skewed. I'd like to see follow-up studies that take the other variables into account. As is, it seems they can make some statements about the behavior of a pre-selected sample of neutered male dogs- in which they correctly say there may be multiple reasons for conflicts. | | | | |
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Torie
If you can roll- in the dirt, do- it! |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 8:34pm PST | | | | | | Dominance theory, to those who believe in it, often seems like a big hammer and everything, and I mean everything, is the nail--because you aren't enough of a leader. Dog pulls on leash or walks ahead of you, dominance. Dog barks at another dog, dominance. Dog hides under bed, dominance. Dog bites, dominance. Dog tears up house, dominance.
I am not sure I would throw it entirely out. Gosh knows, there are some wimpy owners out there who treat their dogs like little spoiled babies. But there are other explanations for behaviors which might be more plausible. Dog pulls, because he is excited about what is out there. Dog hides, might be scared, perhaps because of loud noises. Dog bites. Isn't socialized around people or dogs. Dog tears up house. Might be bored. I'm not saying these are always the case, but you have to look at individual problems and judge them individually.
BTW, this is a great blog, and the writer doesn't have much of an ax to grind. She has written a few books, but they aren't blattenly advertised on the pages.
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com
--des | | | | |
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 9:02pm PST | | | | | | "Taz knows that. And people seem to have a lot to say to Taz not realizing that there is probably NO BREED MORE INFAMOUS for reacting very, very poorly to the use of force. So I don't even know why he gets argued with. The mere fact he has Akitas and has for many years basically certifies he does not have a heavy hand and knows how to be a leader and avoid the pitfalls of dominance obsession. Were he not, he'd been pinned on the floor by his dogs"
- I don't think one person here claimed Taz had a heavy hand, I appreciate that Taz's owner has a great love and appreciation for the breed and is doing right by it....but again... what is getting lost is the point that the Average Joe Shmo is often being (mis)led by pop culture ideals that dominace equates physical overpowering.... I know in MY stances I have been trying to make a point I did not believe people in this debate did such, and that I did not think the methods they used would be considered inhumane - though I choose to not employ them. I know you are against alpha rolling and the like as well, and while you may use corrective training in part, you obviously have some focus on reward... What I am mainly focusing on is what the article (and others like it) are claiming that due to the current culture, it is becoming a validated misconception to do these things (alpha rolling, and hanging a dog), resulting in a large number of dogs being surrendered and euthenized for behavioral issues. You, Taz, and many others here apparently understand that leadership does not mean pinning your dog down until it stops moving... MANY MANY MANY other people in this world, a far greater number than not, I fear, do not understand that concept. And fortunately for a lot of people, dogs can be "good" despite the hardships they undeservingly face or a whole lot more dogs would be in shelters than we see already. Even in your pitbull story (another thread somewhere if I recall)... some dogs overcome despite the odds. The ones that don't end up in shelters.Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 9:06pm PST
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Mia & Dot
Wheeeeeeeeeee!!! |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 10:09pm PST | | | | | | "If you get access to the published study that this article is talking about, it says that aggressive behavior in feral dog packs is mainly seen over territory and mating privileges, and that there does not seem to be a formal dominance hierarchy as seen in captive wolf groups.
The authors studied a group of 19 neutered males kept together in an enclosure at a shelter/rescue. I don't see that it is very analogous to a feral pack of dogs, or a captive pack of wolves in an enclosure where they can't get away from each other. The dogs being studied were all male, there were no females, and all of them were fixed. Plus, I can't think that the rescue would not separate more assertive dogs that wouldn't get along well in the group. I'd want to know how the rescue picked the dogs that went into this enclosure.
If the authors were trying to compare domestic dog behavior to either that of captive wolves or free feral dogs, I think their sample is skewed. I'd like to see follow-up studies that take the other variables into account. As is, it seems they can make some statements about the behavior of a pre-selected sample of neutered male dogs- in which they correctly say there may be multiple reasons for conflicts."
That's a good point to the original post Chan. While I highly doubt either of my dogs tries to be 'dominant' over me, I have one with a higher confidence which makes her appear the more 'bossy' of the two. But they're Aussies, not exactly a 'dominant' breed.
It would be interesting to see the study done with a control group of female & male un-neutered Akitas, or Sibes.Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 10:10pm PST
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Taz - cgc tdi
869092 |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 5:09am PST | | | | | | Tiller very nice post. That said I enjoy a good discussion and welcome disagreements. The different view points keep me looking at behavior from different angles.
Kaya, I've understood where your coming from for some time now during these posts, the thing is mankind is quick to use force. Practices like force fetch, helicoptering, smacking, ext have been going on long before dominance was brought into the picture. The person that does alpha rolls was taught to. I don' t even blame the early wolf studies for this, I blame the guy that saw how submissive a dog looked on his back and decided it would be a way to get a headstrong dog to be submissive so he put that dog on his back. Yes a word can be symbol, but obviously theirs a disagreement as to what the dominance symbol means, and if theirs such a big disagreement on it, wouldn't it make more sense to come up a better symbol more would agree with.
Mia and Dot I would love to see a study with Akitas, but I doubt it would happen, although if they used a male and female and their pups it could work, if they just through a bunch of Akitas together, it wouldn't end well and imagine it would be a very short study. | | | | |
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