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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Taz - cgc tdi
869092 |
 | | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 11:19am PST | |  | |  | | Asher, if I was wrong I'm sorry, but to be honest reading between the lines it didn't appear that way. But I'll let it go and move on.
Let me ask you an opinion on a behavior that lord knows I've seen many times through out the years. You have a dog, for example I'll use my breed of choice an Akita, that goes up to another dog, he's got his ears erect, head held high, chest bowed out and he goes to put his head over the other ones shoulder. Now I see a couple of things here, first and foremost he's acting very confident, but secondly and more importantly, I see a dog who's very intention is to dominate the situation. He doesn't necessary know it, and I'm sure nature, genetics and his own experiences are playing a role, but non the less, it's still a controlling or dominate behavior. At least that's my opinion, whats yours and please don't say their playing, I have yet to meet an Akita that feels much like playing during an act like this.Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 11:25am PST
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 11:42am PST | | | | | | I have an Akita client who does act like this, especially around the Portuguese Water Dog that lives across the ally. And no, I have cautioned the owners, I do NOT think she is playing. I don't know if she would actually attack, but at the very least, she is bluffing to scare the other dog away.
I would (and do) call that dog aggression.
What, is anything, does dog A stand to gain by "dominating" dog B? Partcularly if dog B is a visitor or a new dog or a dog passing on the street?
And BTW, depending on the specific situation, I would call it many things, reactivity, guarding, frustration, barrier aggression or just plain rude behavior.
And that is one of the biggest issues I have with dominance, lumping behaviors under one big, all encompassing heading for convenience.
If the behavior is truly a guarding of territory, I would certainly address it differently than I would if it was leash aggression or barrier frustration.
And, overall, that is beside the point of the article. Dogs creating hierarchies among themselve is something I view with schepisism. But the whole point of the article has to do with relationships between humans and dogs.
Even if dogs do form dominant/submissive relationships with each other, I am not a dog, I am not a mother dog, I am not a packmate. I am outside of and above any pack interactions and my dogs (and my clients dog) do not treat me like they do another dog.
My Akita, Angel, may take a bead on that Portuguese Water Dog aross the street, may attack it if she ever gets the chance, but she does NOT view me that way. In fact, when I enter her home, she sits in a neat little front and waits. | | | | |
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Becky RNCL
I support DSL on- Dogster!
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 11:43am PST | | | | | | Great scenario Taz. This is something my Becky would also do when meeting a new dog. So how to describe this action? (Course, my interpretation only). To me, a dog that behaves appropriately in a social greeting, (like Dolly), is a "confident" dog. She would never do this action. Becky, on the other hand, is so overconfident, she is insecure, if that makes any sense. A dog that is truly comfortable in it's doggy-ness, has no need to make these, pushy, overbearing, "dominant" motions in greeting. They don't need to come up and be like "HI I'm in charge here, do what I say or else." Other dogs just naturally understand. Now, I *could* use Becky's behaviour in greetings to label her as "dominant", but I very strongly avoid using the word "dominant" to describe a personality. I try to use it only situationally Perhaps in this greeting, Becky is acting "dominant" in an overbearing and rude manner to control the social interaction, which basically stems from the fact that she is insecure about her social skills in the first place  But I would not label Becky as a "dominant" dog. She's certainly not "dominant" with people, and she will let puppies (and even Marlo actually) take balls and bones right out of her mouth.
It's a tricky word to be sure, of course made all the more tricky by the fact that we'll never know exactly what is going on in those furry little heads. | | | | |
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Taz - cgc tdi
869092 |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 11:55am PST | | | | | | ahh I have things to do but it so hard walking away from this discussion.
Becky, very nice post.
Asher, I wouldn't call it aggression, because that's the next step, for example I've seen many a dog just submit and they get along fine. As far what they have to gain, I doubt highly their thinking about that. But what they have to gain according to nature are resources. | | | | |
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Becky RNCL
I support DSL on- Dogster!
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 12:15pm PST | | | | | | Because I know that Becky is potentially DA, and because I know on leash greetings can be hard, I've worked a lot on her responding to commands to make greetings easier. With any dog, I think it's best to reward a nice greet and to reward it, as opposed to wait for it to go bad. For example, if I was introducing two dogs that could be a bit tense, we would let them get close, watch for eye contact or a sniff, and then call them back for a reward BEFORE a reaction could happen. My dogs know the command "Here!" which means turn away and come to me, "Look!" "Come!" and will also turn away from a dog at a click to get a reward. I would do the same if two dogs were having a greeting that was a bit tense, because a leash correction, pulling back by the collar, or even a verbal correction can easily escalate the tension. Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 12:17pm PST
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 12:15pm PST | | | | | | But what resource (in the given situation) is there to gain? Kaya pulls that move a lot... she is far from a dominant personality over all... she may try this to "bluff" another dog, but should the other dog retaliate?
I think the more appropriate question for this thread is is how one responds to said situation. (because, after all THAT is what the article is about) There are people, that in this situation would alpha roll their dog and yell "no!" or yank them with a leash pop. Especially if the bluffers bluff was called and a little spat came about.
For example, I just took the dogs to the dog park... (I haven't done that in a LOOOOooong time, but there weren't many dogs, so I thought I would give it a try...
Kaya was one of those greet with the head high kind of thing... at any point I saw those subtle signs where she might instigate something further (because she has) I would call her to me and break the tension that way. And when scuffles do happen (which they didn't at the park because I was hyper vigilant, but am more lax around dogs we know and they happen) I tend not to react all that much because it is typically brief, and they work it out amongst themselves (Usually Kaya getting too big for her britches and getting smacked down)
Blue on the other hand, was great. She greeted every dog with her head low, only barking them away when she got back into the wading pool and didn't want to be bothered. Most dogs sensed her "insecurity" I think, and left her alone. As Becky said... I do not consider my dogs dominant or submissive... it is more situational. I do pay attention to their signals though, because they often determines my course of action. Back to the article it is about how we respond to our dogs behaviors. If I were to reprimand Blue for barking at other dogs it would make her MORE fearful. If I were to reprimand Kaya as opposed to redirecting her positively, it could encourage her to act more defensively towards the other dog because she thinks them coming near her can cause her to be "punished" (if I were to be an aggressive handler that was slapping down her dominance) Again.. it is not about dominance so much as how one perceives it and reacts to it...
I don't really know why this discussion keeps going back to dominance in itself. I can understand disagreeing with the idea of hierarchies (or agreeing with it - I am on the fence) anyway... the article is about using aggressive tactics to modify behavior causing potential behavior issues... if you don't have that problem, then you are likely a handler not crossing that line. But I do think it is suggesting that the recent spotlight on dominance has misled a lot of unknowing people in how they handle their dogs. Overall, I think the article makes a good point. I t probably could have done well without the shots at Cesar though... that just (obviously) turned people off of it without really allowing them to tune into the real point of the article IMO. A year ago, it would have done the same to me because of it... I would have gotten all up in arms defending the man. (ETA- and have, right her on dogster)Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 12:22pm PST
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Taz - cgc tdi
869092 |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 12:28pm PST | | | | | | But what resource (in the given situation) is there to gain? Kaya pulls that move a lot... she is far from a dominant personality over all... she may try this to "bluff" another dog, but should the other dog retaliate?
Well their really could be any number of resources, for example you can be seen as a resource in your dogs eyes. Territory itself is a resource. But really it's kind of mute point, I really don't think dogs are giving it that much thought. With Akita's I wouldn't really call it an insecure behavior as a general rule, not really known for their shyness. That doesn't mean their are not exceptions, but being such an independent breed they tend to share close behavior traits with wolfs. If an Akita is acting confident, chances are he is confident, he was bred to be. | | | | |
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