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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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Sheila, AAD,- MR, JCH-Br,- SCH-S
I'm so glad the- puppy is- gone....!!! |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 8:54am PST | |  | |  | | I HAVE to chine in here again:
#1: When I watch my older dogs teaching puppies their limits, call it whatever you want (dominance or leadership or whatever), they push, bite, nip, growl, roll them over, step on them, etc. And the young dogs learn from that what's appropriate and what not. The worst dogs I've had were those that never went through this what I call "real life" school taught by other dogs.
---> And I use some of the same techniques when necessary. Sure, I try first with treats, gentle luring, etc. But sometimes you need to act quickly in order to re-establish order. I happen to have two totally opposite dogs, one is a perfect follower, a little shy with people and other dogs, and the other one is a natural bully and I need to watch her around dogs (I also have frequent foster dogs of all ages, all Border Collies). Once she has established who's who and where's where in the pack order, she is fine and a great educator to young dogs. But she CLEARLY is a so-called Alpha dog; nobody denies that. So, if I feel I have to quickly interfere in order to avoid a potential dangerous situation, there's no time for clicker training. I need to watch my dogs and see the sign BEFORE something happens and redirect their focus. Luckily, that works 99% of the time and we all live happily.
#2: I am sick of having CM reduced to "the one who uses the Alpha Roll". Who else can handle a huge pack of formerly instable dogs? Who?? Anybody? He simply does what dogs do themselves among eachother, and it works. Period. You can condone the people who don't do it correctly after they watch his show. But he has a way of dealing with these troubled dogs like nobody else. And despite using a little force once-in-a-while, none of these dogs is traumatized afterwards. Don't forget, he mostly works with problem dogs that have an aggression problem. And most owners you see on the show have gone to great lenghts with other trainers without success. Geeeez.
#3: Each dog is different. My follower-dog reacts to as much as a nod with my head or a little "a-ah". My bully dog's energy is so much higher that she does everything with a lot more intensity, good and not so good stuff. For example, after years of multiple daily walks, I am still having difficulties walking her without pulling when we go to the park (otherwise she is fine). She SOOO much wants to go there, I can't calm her down for any piece of steak or toy or even ball in the world. In that state, the only way to control her is by holding a tight leash with occasional correction. Or stopping, or walking the other direction. And trust me, I am a very patient person.
Let's be clear: unless you show clear leadership and a certain degree of dominance, you are not able to handle a dog that has a strong will and has the natural desire to control. I'm not talking about the cute fluff ball that roles naturally on her back when you approach her. I'm talking about a dog with a strong self-esteem that doesn't want to take crap from anyone. |  |  | |  |
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 9:06am PST | | | | | | I watch the guy (not as much as I used to... I used to love him but my attitude changed over time). I am intrigued by some things he does, appalled by others. I don't always think he gets it quite right in his explanations of what he is doing, and in some cases think their are more "humane" ways, but I don't think he is totally wrong either. I am talking more about the dangers of people trying this on their own mentality when they really shouldn't be, because they misinterpret fear for aggression and dominance and the like. Face it, most people do not have good dog language skills and lack the experience to have learned them. Some people are natural at it.
Again, this thread and article isn't about Cesar... it's about people who decide that these methods are appropriate in situations when they are not, and using them harshly to correct behaviors, when in fact they are making them worse, so those dogs end up in rescue shelters. My attitude towards Cesar started to change when I saw the number of people who misapplied those techniques. This goes way back before Cesar (as Asher so detailed) - Cesar just made it "pop culture" I actually am more impressed with his interpretation of human psychology than his dog psychology BOL.Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 9:13am PST
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Kate
Zoom Zoom |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 9:49am PST | | | | | | Didnt particularly care of this article..dont agree with it...
From article
"Dr Rachel Casey, Senior Lecturer in Companion Animal Behaviour and Welfare at Bristol University, said: “The blanket assumption that every dog is motivated by some innate desire to control people and other dogs is frankly ridiculous. It hugely underestimates the complex communicative and learning abilities of dogs. It also leads to the use of coercive training techniques, which compromise welfare, and actually cause problem behaviours."
What I dont agree with here..I really dont think dogs WANT to control people, or the majority of them dont. I think the desire to establish control comes out in dogs when they lack strong leadership from their owner. a dog looks to his leader as a source of stability within the family. i the leader(owner) is not there is give that stability, the dog will look to fill that void. In a nutshell..alot of dog problems are people problems.
"“In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment. Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used – but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, or watched unqualified ‘behaviourists’ recommending such techniques on TV.”
Post shot at CM..I cant stand when folks take cheap shots, in any aspect of life..IMO, if the argument can stand on its own, cheap shots dont need to be taken..BTW, I cant think of any "behaviorist" on TV who RECCOMENDS their method be applied and that professional guidance should be sought. I really think alot of these people taking the shots have watched one or two shows..never read any lit. on the techniques..
I dont think dogs suddenly go off the deepend one day..they give warning signs to us that, if the owner is perceptive, they can fix the problem then, before it blows into full blown aggression..I would bet alot of animals with severe aggression were allowed to "get away" with smaller infractions and the infractions gradualy escalated.
“Sadly, many techniques used to teach a dog that his owner is leader of the pack is counter-productive; you won’t get a better behaved dog, but you will either end up with a dog so fearful it has suppressed all its natural behaviours and will just do nothing, or one so aggressive it’s dangerous to be around.”
How is making my dogs wait patiently for their dinner causing any problems? God forbid they actually learn some patience..why is it a bad thing to make my dogs learn to wait at the door til I say it's OK..I can open the door and my dogs wait..I can open the cardoor and I dont have a mad rush for them all to jump out. proper leadership to a dog IS NOT asking them to supress their natural behaviors..its providing stability to that dog.
I stand firmly in the beleif that most dogs look to have a leader to provide stability and security in their lives..Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 9:51am PST
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Bunny
Black dogs rock! |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 10:01am PST | | | | | | Thank you , Asher for answering my question
."And in the 70's few dog trainers worked with R+ based methods in the world of dogs. "
I was wondering if anybody knew who any of the popular trainers who used R+ methods in the 70's were. The reason I ask, is those training books that I read in childhood were those I based my dog training through many adult years. To my recallation there were no mentions of either pack leader theory or clicker training. | | | | |
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 10:07am PST | | | | | | Taz, no, I was NOT calling you a layman, I was talking about language.
Substitute the word common for layman's.
BTW, by common, I mean general, not course or vulgar. I wouldn't want you to think I was applying the wrong definition to the word or applying the word to you.
And yes, gas can be a state of a matter (as in gas, solid or liquid), but it can also be fuel. It depends on the context of the conversation. Words that have a common definition often have a very specific definition within field and dominance is one of those words.
What I was saying is that applying the common (or layman's) definition to a word like gas or knot is not accurate within a chemical or naval setting. Applying a common definition of dominance is not accurate within a behavior context. | | | | |
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Kolbe
Where can I run- today? |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 10:17am PST | | | | | | How is making my dogs wait patiently for their dinner causing any problems? God forbid they actually learn some patience..why is it a bad thing to make my dogs learn to wait at the door til I say it's OK..I can open the door and my dogs wait..I can open the cardoor and I dont have a mad rush for them all to jump out. proper leadership to a dog IS NOT asking them to supress their natural behaviors..its providing stability to that dog.
I doubt making the dog sit for its meal is what they are referring to here. How about a dog that doesn't want to give up a toy and instead of going about it in a better way, the owner just tries to rip the item out of the dog's mouth and pops him one on the nose for growling (because they "are the boss, I can take things from him whenever I want" and the dog "needs to understand that" -- there have been multiple people in my lifetime whether that be relatives, friends or acquaintances who did/do such things), until the dog just doesn't growl anymore and just goes right for the bite. That would be suppressing a natural behavior to a detriment. Obviously one would want to correct Resource Guarding so that the dog gladly hands over whatever they have in their mouth instead of making it a forceful "power struggle" which just causes it to escalate. However, a great deal of the general public views it that way.
Same goes for leash pulling -- someone get so frustrated with their pulling dog they yank them backwards screaming "HEEL!!!" because pulling/being in front implies dominance and the owner again uses muscle instead of actual training to correct it, because they are again looking at it as a power/relationship issue and not a training issue. IMO these were the types of things the article was referring to.
I do not believe that this is the type of training that an actual well-versed corrections-based trainer does, I'm just talking about Joe Schmo down the street who has these bits and pieces of "training knowledge" and uses it as an excuse for not actually doing real training but instead just throwing his weight around. There are still plenty of Joe Schmos out there -- there's about 3 of them on my street alone. I don't care if proper corrections-based training never goes away -- what I want to go away is those morons who roll their dogs on their backs and pin them to the ground to "teach them a lesson for not listening" after they catch them from bolting out the door and chasing them all over the neighborhood, or the guy who keeps the choker eternally tightened, or the guy who rips a shoe out of a dog's mouth and then smacks them on the butt with it, or the guy who scruffs his dog for looking not listening to the sit command because he "knows better" and "needs to listen to the alpha". I just want that to go away. I'm well aware that none of the corrections-based people that frequent this forum are "that guy", I'm just saying "that guy" IS still out there and I think attributing everything to dominance only adds fuel to their fire because it gives them a reason to continue what they do. | | | | |
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