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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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 | | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 6:54am PST | |  | |  | | "What word would I use instead? While it should mean the same thing, by your definitions of dominance, I would use leadership instead, because it conjures up a different image in most peoples minds than dominance does."
 Then Cain is "Leader of the Pack"?  Wasn't there a song about that in the '60's? I'm cool with leadership as an alternative word - I think the problem, as Tiller said in a different thread, is that to people, words are symbols - and those symbols translate differently depending on the person. Similar is the word "punisher" which to the R+ crowd means removal of positive stimulus (negative punisher), while to others, it means something entirely different. Possibly the real question is how to effectively disseminate the information that one is trying to get out there - how to market/present it to those one is trying to reach. |  |  | |  |
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Gray Dawn- Treader
Don't Tread on- me
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 6:56am PST | | | | | | Great article.
I especially agree with this part:
"“Sadly, many techniques used to teach a dog that his owner is leader of the pack is counter-productive; you won’t get a better behaved dog, but you will either end up with a dog so fearful it has suppressed all its natural behaviours and will just do nothing, or one so aggressive it’s dangerous to be around.”"
I do feel that the dominance theory makes people do things that cause aggression in their dogs. They are taught that alpha rolls will make their dog respect them, when of course they can make your dog feel that he is being attacked, which causes fear-aggression. In short, they are taught the wrong ways to be the alpha. I believe in the dominance theory, yes. But not to the extreme that it's taken today. I mean, I've read books that have said that if your dog doesn't obey you that means you need to show it who's boss. Erm...not necessarily. It could mean several things. It could mean that you are confusing the dog, the dog doesn't understand what you want, etc.
So, what do I believe about the dominance theory? Simply this:
You become alpha by controlling resources, and you make it clear that you, not the dog, make the decisions. You don't need violent methods to accomplish this. Not at all.Edited by author Wed Jul 1, '09 6:57am PST
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 7:10am PST | | | | | | "as Tiller said in a different thread, is that to people, words are symbols - and those symbols translate differently depending on the person. " - That is exactly the problem and why dominant has become a poor choice of words because of the many ways people can define it, even if there is one trued dictionary definition - people interpret it in many many ways. Same goes for punishment. While punishment does not = cruel and unjust, though often interpreted as such and often can be. There is a definite place in the world for appropriate punishment - though I avoid it, even in my classrooms as a last resort - but at least with children, punishment can be discussed. I know my father would punish me for bad behaviors but then we would ALWAYS have a discussion about whether I understood what I did wrong and why I was punished, and was always followed by an "I love you kid" and a hug. Even with in our household and in my classroom, positive reinforcement was always the first choice so that we might avoid punishment all together. I try to take the same approach with my dogs, especially because (in my philosophy - not saying others a wrong) that we can not explain punishment and get the feed back if the dog understands what was wrong, so it is best to use nurturing methods to teach what is right. This is not to say I have not commanded my dog "no" and gave her a glare for doing something she shouldn't... the dogs are great readers of my body language. When Blue has her head under the fence, ready to escape, I say "eheh" and when she stops and looks my way I always say "come" (and when she responds to that, which is thankfully always) I say "Good Girl!" and reward with praise (a treat if it was something really distracting she pulled herself away from) "eheh" and my glare are technically "punishment" - she does not like to get an "eheh" but it is not cruel or unjust. Now if I had gone down there and yelled and alpha rolled her in front of the place she tried to escape (something I saw the neighbor do when his dog came through the fence) mumbling about how she was stubborn and dominant... I cringe - that is unjust punishment and cruel. I (think) I showed leadership and guidance in my dogs training (and yes, safety) not "dominance" at his come to by understood by many (again, in many many cases those who never seek "professional" training, and likely never would or will)
Then again, some people will be jerks/ ignorant no matter what you call it... those people just suck BOL. | | | | |
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 7:38am PST | | | | | | Oh... wanted to add as well. I understand that leadership / dominance is also supposed to be about control of resources, and I can appreciate this concept to a point. I make my dogs wait in front of their food bowls to give me eye contact before letting them dive in.Or wait in front of the door (most of the time, because I am working on impulse control with my dog) But on this issue there are people who take it too far as well. I have been to horse shows or to other animal events where the animal was denied water for performing poorly overhearing comments like "That piece of _______ doesn't deserve water. I'll show him who is boss." Again... jerks will be jerks, but withholding a resources can just as well cross the line into cruelty and should be used with limitations and should never include endangering the well being of the animal. (not suggesting a one of you do that by ANY means... just showing the dangers when the ideologies of these ignorant people can be construed as being supported by pop culture ideas. | | | | |
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Becky RNCL
I support DSL on- Dogster!
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 7:49am PST | | | | | | "...but part of the way to underscore the wrongness is to educate how it is done right."
Totally agree. As a crossover trainer, I know exactly how it feels to have people belittle you for your training style, and as an instructor I feel it is my responsibility to help people understand why I train the way I do and how it can work for them. However, I don't think it's too much to ask people to "redefine the entire world as they know it". Why not, when the world they might find could be amazing? It was for me! I constantly hone my skill at showing people the so called "kinder, gentler way" to train without making them feel stupid, cruel or ignorant; because I've been there and it hurts. And if they are one of those "a heck of a lot of people who simply want a fast and effective way to train their dog with which they can easily relate", well, great, because I can help them do that without having to teach them leash corrections or reassuring them that their dog sees them as "alpha", because I believe passionately in the training that I do and I won't teach someone something that I disagree with on so many levels. And because of the way that I coach them, I have a great success rate with keeping people with me instead of alienating them. If someone brings up how much they love Cesar, I don't jump on them and say "wow, he's a tool", I can say something like, "well, I really like the emphasis he places on exercise and how important it is for your dog to be treated like a dog." If they use lots of leash corrections, I gently show them an alternative way to deal with the behaviour they don't like from their dog. If they want to be the "alpha", I tell them how to use control of resources to be the "leader" in their dog's eyes. This, in my opinion, is SO important in dog training. Many many people can handle dogs and handle them well, but it is really challenging to help people accept new ideas in a kind and convincing manner. | | | | |
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 8:26am PST | | | | | | Bunny, a brief history of dog training.
Before WWI, most dogs were trained through the use of force, though there were exceptions. Truffle farmers learned to use dog to hunt truffles and rewarded them with bread (because when they used pigs, the pigs would eat the truffles). Morgan Stevens trained his dog to hunt bear again using bread, although at the time, popular training for bear dog included kicks and beatings.
Then along came Thordyke (conducting studies for human behavior). He was the first to connect the behavior/consequence chain.
Pavlov conducted his studies around the turn of the century. He was actually studying digestion. They would dry and grind up the meat and mix it with a bit of water to make a paste. One tube supplied the food to the dogs mouth, the other collected the saliva. The bell was to tell the assistants to feed the dogs.
What he discovered is that after a number of repititions, the dogs would begin to salivate (an involuntary response) when they heard the bell. And voila, Classical Conditioning was born.
Now, in between Pavlov and Skinner, there was a war and the American Public was exposed to film of some of Germany's 200,000 working dogs. People were pretty impressed with the level of obedience these dogs had and the quest to train began in earnest.
In the late 30's, along came Skinner and operant conditioning. People who lack knowledge associate OC with R+ based trainers, but the fact is that OC includes 4 quadrants, two of which R+ based trainers avoid. Skinner was sorking on projects like the pigeon guided missle for the government and employed Marian and Keller Breeland.
After the war, Marian and Keller Breeland assumed the perfect outlet for their knowledge base was dog training,but the public at large, enamoured by military dogs, didn't bite. So they opened ABE and successfully turned their attention to a multitude of breeds, including birds, dolphins and chicken.
In the 50's Conrad Lorenz wrote Man Meets Dog. An interesting book, and probably one of the foundations for traditional training.
Meanwhile, back in the trenches, the Breelands are working for the government, creating kamakazi dolphins. That is where Marian met Bob Baily, the first Naval Director of Animal Training. When Keller dies, Marian marries Bob Bailey. If Karen Pryor is the Mother of Clicker training, Bob Bailey is it's father. Still these concepts were not applied to dogs.
In the 70's, The Monks Of New Skete published their first book on dog training. It was based on poorly interpreted data collected from pack of unrelated wolves in an unnatural setting.
This is where we first see dominance come into play in dog training. It doesn't matter if a trainer is aware of this or totally ignorant of the porigins of dominance training, it all came out of those wolf studies in the 40's and 50's and a group of monks.
In the 80's Ms. Pryor, drawing heavily on the work of Skinner and the Bailey's, published Don't Shoot the Dog and clicker training, as we know it today, was born.
Bunny, that is probably way too much information, but to answer your basic questions, force is how training started and that would include molding. Luring eveloved as we became more sophisticated about our training methods. And in the 70's few dog trainers worked with R+ based methods in the world of dogs.
I think it is important as a dog trainer to have a thorough understanding of the history of dog training.
Your really not going to change my mind because I don't agree and I'm sure their are more out their like me.
And my goal is not to change your mind, but rather to debate. Until a decade or two ago, people like me did not even exist.
And while such terms as dominance do have a layman's definition, one would certainly not apply a layman's definition to a technical subjest.
If I am on a boat, I would hope the sailer is not going to interprete knot as something that belongs in a shoestring, if I am standing in a room full of cylinders, I would hope that the expert there is not defining gas as something we put in our car tanks and if I am discussing behavior and training, I would hope that the people I am talking with are capable of understanding the difference between a laymman's definition of dominance and the behavioral definition of dominance. | | | | |
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Taz - cgc tdi
869092 |
| | Barked: Wed Jul 1, '09 8:41am PST | | | | | | Woa, somebodies getting a little upset, referring to me as laymman just because I don't agree with you. Although I have no doubt that you know more history, I heavily disagree that I don't have a pretty good understanding of canine behavior. Talk about spewing gas. Lets see Gas, well you could be talking about methane or oxygen. Doesn't actually change what the word gas means it's just the type of gas. For example I would call slapping someone around a cruel type of dominance where as picking up a child and giving it cookie to enforce a rule would be a caring form of dominance. You need to keep in mind that theories are not always wrong, they can just evolve. | | | | |
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