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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Sheila, AAD,- MR, JCH-Br,- SCH-S
I'm so glad the- puppy is- gone....!!! |
 | | Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 4:11pm PST | |  | |  | | Check out this related article:
"Dogs Are Aggressive If They Are Trained Badly"
(it's under the same link, just a little further down).
It contradicts many things that the original article states.
I am all for positive reinforcement etc, but I also strongly believe in dominance and making sure that the dog knows that "I" am in charge. My dogs LOVE to please me because I am their leader.
And Asher: we know you're talking about Cesar Millan. You can say it. I am a huge fan and applying some of Cesar's techniques wisely definitely helps.
Also: define a "professional". I consider myself a professional since I've been working and training with dogs (my own, and fosters) for many years without considering it my "profession". It's my hobby, actually
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M
Too Much Is- Never- Enough...I'm A- Giant! |
| | Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 5:16pm PST | | | | | | I think all this stuff gets misleading. Traditional training was not founded upon the concept of heirarchy, and dominance need not tie to heirarchy in order to be exercised. Dominance/submissive (which in more solitary species can also mean retreat) exchanges can and do occur in solitary species. More critically, if dominance were foreign to dogs, then obviously there would be no need for submissive messaging and calming signals. Nature isn't that stupid. And as far as a meme? I don't think so, unless chimpanzees somehow managed to suck up our cultural influence in some unknown cosmos. They are our closest cousins,after all, and they, above almost any other creature, are rank obsessed, making this preoccupation in all likelihood quite genetic and, for however uncomfortable we may be with it and for all the trouble it brings, some measure of our truth. Edited by author Tue Jun 30, '09 5:18pm PST
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Trigger
Tennis ball- OBSESSED!!! |
| | Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 6:21pm PST | | | | | | "What would likely happen if a human tried to dominate a chimp in training methods?"
I'm curious why you think the result in that situation would be relavent to this topic? What your implication there is?
I will say this...because of the link from chimp to human...when raising kids, if they don't have a clear and concise picture of who is in charge, and a respect for that person(s) in charge, they will run all over ANYone they possibly can.
In that sense I agree that parents do dominate their children, and should. Not in the sense that they should necessarily be physical with them but in the sense that they need to establish a heirarchy of sorts where the parents are obviously the ones making the rules and enforcing them. Kids thrive on discipline and structure that comes via their "rulers" lol. I suspect chimps would have a similar response and from the tiny (emphasis on TINY) bit I've seen on that chimp show on Discovery channel I believe it is (?) chimps do dominate each other and live in a sort of pack led social structure. There are leaders and followers. The leaders rule the roost and do enforce their will on others using physical and emotional corrections. The guy on the show will occasionally use tactics to dominate certain chimps...it's tough with my limited knowledge to gauge if what he's doing is successful or not but it seems to work. Everyone has their place and conflict seems to be limited...I guess I'd consider that success.
Heirarchy exists in a family sense, heirarchy exists within a pack of dogs co-habitating together, heirarchy exists in a group of chimps co-habitating...so why can't there be heirarchy in an inter-species sense? | | | | |
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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| | Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 6:38pm PST | | | | | | Because of this comment: "I don't think so, unless chimpanzees somehow managed to suck up our cultural influence in some unknown cosmos. They are our closest cousins,after all, and they, above almost any other creature, are rank obsessed, making this preoccupation in all likelihood quite genetic and, for however uncomfortable we may be with it and for all the trouble it brings, some measure of our truth."
Not saying that one should treat a chimp like a child either... as humans we often seem to fail in training children too BOL... it just struck me as an odd comment...
An I understand where people come up with the dominance theories... I really do. I appreciate the concept of leadership... it's just been my experience that many many people who do buy into dominance (and are newer to dog ownership, especially) DO think it means beating a dog down... maybe not through hitting but through pinning and the like. My main reason why I think people need to drop the word. If a human tried to alpha roll a chimp, it would do one of several things including learned helplessness (if a super young one) or having ones face ripped off! Yet, they do have a hierarchical society... and they may "dominate" each other, but that doesn't really work cross species IMO.
I just view leadership and roll of "teacher" (or even parent) in different lights than what the word dominance often suggests. | | | | |
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Taz - cgc tdi
869092 |
| | Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 6:45pm PST | | | | | | (I just view leadership and roll of "teacher" (or even parent) in different lights than what the word dominance often suggests.)
I understand where your coming from, but remember to teach the teacher firsts needs to control (dominate) the classroom. See I don't think the problem is in the word, personally I would like to more trainers concentrate on getting the word out that their are better ways then force training. Really has nothing to do with the word, like I've said numerous times, whether you manipulate using food or correction your attempting to control or dominate the subject. | | | | |
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M
Too Much Is- Never- Enough...I'm A- Giant! |
| | Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 7:00pm PST | | | | | | Hiya, Kaya. Let me explain....you left the first sentence out, which is what the rest refers to. Our identifying with heirarchy is not a meme. A meme, said simplistically, is something that swells within our culture and eventually is adopted as part of our social conscience. Mini skirts are often used as an example, but that is sort of simple, so let us take instead the concept of political correctness. At one time, only a small group felt we ought conduct ourselves that way, but because of states of culture at that time, it was adopted by more....very often the cooler crowd, or trend setters, in these evolutions....and so others aped it, media picked it up, and before you know it it becomes a part of our social identity. This is one of the wondrous (at times!) parts of being human. How the idea of a few can swell to be adopted by the greater all.
And with that explained, our sense of heirarchy is not a meme. We've long been slave keepers, we have loved to oppress....throughout history and to this day, it somehow lends us a sense of power. We love to associate with power. We love to assume power. Many evolutionary theoriests believe our species slaughtered his Neanderthal cousin and thereby rose more rapidly to all assming power. We are, in short, a big stick species. And our closest cousin in the wild not only is quite heirarchical, but similar to us tends to pick on lower ranks far more readily than would occur in many other heirarchical structures in the world, practices allegiances that can enforce over the wider but weaker whole. My niece is studying to be a zoologist, and she finds something familiar....warm for how touching and supportive chimps can be, but also uncomfortable with familiar rhythms of oppression, seemingly random violence, even murder.
So no, I do not find it to be a meme. I think it would be wonderful if we all can continue to evolve. But that is a struggle within the human condition. Sometimes reflected in training style, in personal relationships, in our communities, societies....in the whole lot of it. It is part of who we are....the internal battles we all struggle with. But I am not blind to it. Plenty in my life would dominate me if I gave them a chance....and that is inner calling, just as it is mine to fight for my own life as I choose it to be. Dominance and submission, or as I prefer the drive to press or the willingness to yield, is part of the natural order. We get to create our own worlds though, and therein does rest some difference, but never will it replace the truth of ourselves or the magnitude of our struggles.Edited by author Tue Jun 30, '09 7:14pm PST
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