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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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 | | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 4:55pm PST | |  | |  | | The key to leadership is to show the dog (or tomcat) that polite acceptable behavior will get them more of what they want or need than bossy controlling behavior.
That is called impulse control. A 6 year old child that wants everything he/she sees in a toy store may be a brat, may be poorly brought up, but that does not mean the child is dominant, just spoilt and lacking impulse control. The same could be said for people who spend beyond their means on credit, running up bills they can't pay. They want what they want and they want it now.
Cain, if you look closely into the Monks reasons for the retraction, it is nt because they felt the method is a bad one, but because they thought people were using it indiscriminantly and that emplyedby an untrained person, it held danger.
Job Micheal Evens said that dogs who submit don't need it and dogs that need it won't submit to it.
They still held on to their basic opinions of dominance even though they removed this technique from their book. |  |  | |  |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 5:16pm PST | | | | | | Yes, Asher, I am aware that they still believe in the 'dominance' theory - but they did also say that this (alpha roll) was only used in "certain extreme situations", and that they "strongly discourage its use to our clients." They go on to say that it is too risky & extreme for the average dog owner; "there are other ways of dealing with problem behavior that are much safer & in the long run, just as effective". So, while they may not have changed their core belief about dominance, they have retracted support for, as I said before, the technique ascribed to them which vilifies them most frequently - and that's a good thing. At least they are putting it out there to STOP this technique - and since apparently their books still sell like hotcakes, that is a positive step in getting the word out to the masses, regardless of what they might personally believe. Edited by author Sat Jul 4, '09 5:19pm PST
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Molly
Let's play! |
| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 5:17pm PST | | | | | | But if you threw that bone out when the dog barked for a week then didn't It would bark louder. If that didn't work it would bark faster or even howl instead of bark. If you still didn't throw it out it would bark and bark as hard and loud as it can. That is a concept called "extinction burst". The dog has learned it it's mind (it doesn't have to be true) that barking brings that bone. It's trying to control it's environment to get a resource. It doesn't matter that the thinking is flawed. It doesn't even know that you worked late and are still preparing the bones at 3:30. It learned the other day that if it barked the bone came.
Also if you walked out into the yard and the dog knew you were the one throwing bones I bet it will be all over you wanting that bone. It knows you are in charge of bones and it will try to find whatever of your buttons it can push to get that bone it expects.
Again come by and spend a day with Molly. If she wants to play she will have her rope tug and push it in your lap. She will dangle it in front of you. If you lean even slightly she will pull it back and tease you with it. "C'mon you know you want it. Grab the rope boy. C'mon grab it. Here it is. Just a little more and you will have it. Psych!! Gotcha. Oh please grab the rope. Please. Please Please".
It's the same thing you would do if you wanted to entice her into playing with the rope. Why would you call it one thing when you do it and another when the dog does it? It's an attempt to initiate play (which at the time is a desired outcome). That is controling behavior.
Look at some people with spoiled dogs. They've taught the dog that the spoiled behavior is what gets it what it wants so the dog will continue the behavior to get it.
Take a clicker trained dog. Pick up a clicker and a bag of treats and watch what the dog does to get one of those treats out of you. It will go through all it's learned behaviors and possibly more it hasn't learned to find the one that gets the click/treat. Those behaviors aren't muscle spasms. They are things the dog has learned yields rewards and they will throw them at you until they give up or get the click/treat. Whatever you call it the dog is trying to get something it wants and it has learned that those behaviors will get that something. That is controlling behavior. | | | | |
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 7:51pm PST | | | | | | It's trying to control it's environment to get a resource.
Exactly. As a clicker trainer I count on that. In fact, it is the whole idea behind clicker training. Dog performs Behavior A to earn Reinforcement B.
If that is dominance (controlling the environment), then I guess us clicker trainers are in a lot of trouble because all out dogs are trying to control the consequences. | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 8:48pm PST | | | | | | Well, I guess it's all in how you look at it -  Dog exhibits/modifys behavior in order to get YOU to do what it wants - provide a treat - you've just been controlled. A classic reframing statement right out of a brief strategic therapy text. 
For those into the 12 step program, the dog is "codependent" - trying to control your behavior by modifying it's own.
Words are very interesting things - you can describe the exact same event using different definitions or frameworks, and elicit a multitude of associated emotional reactions - a helix, so to speak. | | | | |
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Stella- "Blue"
Puttin' my freak- on!
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| | Barked: Sun Jul 5, '09 9:03am PST | | | | | | But if we call dominance "controlling their environment" this is suggesting that when my dog goes to the door, sits, whines softly and looks at me, I get up and let her out. She has controlled her environment and my actions and means she is dominating me? I hardly think so, I don't imagine you do either. I want her to tell me she has to go out...
Oh - and just a comment on the whole silly male vs female thing earlier. I find it interesting about the reasons people pick male over female... I have always owned females (except my childhood dog, which I did not pick out) and always preferred them, not that I wouldn't own a male if I happened upon one that I really liked, but I always went with the females. It is the only species I owned that I prefer the females though... horses and cats I prefer the males. It was neat to get peoples different perspectives on that. | | | | |
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Dahlia
Wet and- Wild............ |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 5, '09 9:15am PST | | | | | | "When I wake up with a severed rabbit head in my bed and a scribbled note reading "From now on, dinner will consist of lightly seared steaks only or I publish that photo from that night - you know the one" signed with a paw print... Then I'll believe dogs are actively being controlling."
OT, but Vance, that statement deserves serious Props!! A dog like that, I would obey! (Italians understand that type of conditioning....)
Continue on with the debate......... | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Sun Jul 5, '09 10:36am PST | | | | | | "But if we call dominance "controlling their environment" this is suggesting that when my dog goes to the door, sits, whines softly and looks at me, I get up and let her out. She has controlled her environment and my actions and means she is dominating me? I hardly think so, I don't imagine you do either. I want her to tell me she has to go out... "
No, Stella - you're right about that.  I'm just commenting on how different people can interpret the same event depending on the way it's described - Words can truly make things "weird"..... | | | | |
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Cracker
Dog About- Rosedale
moderator |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 5, '09 10:42am PST | | | | | | Wow, pups! This has been a VERY interesting thread to read.
My opinion.
Every living creature tries to control it's environment. Without some semblance (even if it's a 'false control') of control we would ALL be dropping dead from stress and anxiety. Predictability is why, for good or bad, certain behaviours or cycles repeat themselves..even if they are not good for us. The unknown is frightening and risky. This is what learning the matrix of A plus B=C is about. Survival as a basic organic need.
The problem with implying that attempting to control an environment or situation is "dominating" behaviour is that it for many, if not most, dogs (or people for that matter) it's not that they want to "win" or be dominant over the situation but that they find a certain amount of security in being able to manage the situation for their benefit or to allay bad things from happening. If you assume this controlling behaviour is "dominance" then it becomes a tug of war, when instead it COULD be win win if thought out well.
On the topic of male female...well that's a touchy one, but John Gray (terrible writing stylist that he is) had it right when he said men are from Mars and women are from Venus...lol. Different biological imperatives, different physical and mental acuities..though it can vary from individual to individual.
And Cain, I have met a few of those "controlling" dominant dogs..the starers, the pushers and the ones who do not think twice about using aggression to force compliance. Luckily they are few and far between and can be managed with proper behaviour mod and a smart (not competitive) owner.
I've also met people like this. Smartly handled..(like a woman) they can be won over...(insert evil laugh here). I played competitive basketball with men, earning their respect took a bit of work and a LOT of persistence..but not once did I have to alpha roll anyone...all it took was being SMART, tough and a few ball fakes.
Keep up the friendly thread...it's nice to see. | | | | |
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