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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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 | | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 2:14pm PST | |  | |  | | Tiller, I don't think anyone implicated Kholer in the dominance movement.
It is indeed the Monks who initiated this movement, which was based on studies of unrelated wolve in an unnatural environment. And that study was initiated due to studies on chickens and pecking orders which are now being reevaluated.
As to changing their methods, this is how they train, new dog, leash pops right off the get go on training. Heck, from this vidoe it apprears the use leash pops in place of cues. Least anyone accuse Brother Christopher of being a novice, he is the head dog trainer for the group that started the whole dominance thing:
And here is a sample of their training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_yjVBVNqkg&feature=Play List&p=1ED8FE79C7732CCA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3
1:53, leash pop
1:56, leash pop
2:00, Leash pop
2:11, Leash pop
2:20, pulls up on leash for sit
2:24, pulls on leash to gain moving heel
2:33, pull on leash to make dog sit
2:40, leash pop for stay
2:48, rather firm leash pop for breaking a stay
2:49, another firm leash pop for not sitting (I thing, no command was given)
2:55, leash pop for breaking a sit, even though the leash was very tight as the handler walked away. You can actually see the dogs front paws lift off the ground a bit
3:19, another firm leash pop for breaking a sit stay.
These bother me because she is very sloppy with her handling of the leash, allowing it to pull the collar around the dog's neck. When I was training this move (with a clicker and food) my trainer told me I better make sure my leash stayed on the right side of the dogs as I walked around.
3:22, another leash pop for breaking a stay
3:33, leash pop to start a heel
Why is she popping the lead to initiate commands??
3:36, pulling the leash tight to make the dog sit
4:24, leash pop for breaking a stay and the dog is becoming obviously stressed.
4:37, leash pop for breaking a down-stay
5:52, pulling the lead up to make the dog sit
That is 18 leash pops or pulls in 3 minutes. Lots of stress signals from the dog. |  |  | |  |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 3:25pm PST | | | | | | It's interesting that the Monks have, in their 1978 "How to be Your Dog's Best Friend" an entire chapter called "Playing Pavlov" in which they outline training via what they called "sound conditioning", using jingling keys & whistles. It goes on to describe how this can 'deepen the relationship with your dog & alleviate many forms of problem behaviors....by a simple form of sound conditioning." Additionally, they go on to describe "conditioning procedures" via "neutral whistles or jingling keys", and "positive boosters/reinforcing effects". They go on with saying that they have 'long used (positive reinforcement) with our puppies, and with great results.....and start the conditioning at feeding time...."
They then give several case scenarios using positive reinforcement to train and solve problem behaviors.
They also discuss clicker training in the second edition of this book - stating "there are a number of highly competent trainers taking this approach', and say that people can train their dogs successfully using this method - which, in some ways doesn't sound very different than their "sound conditioning" using jingling keys, etc. What they do seem to object to is the idea that dogs do not or can not understand "that there are negative consequences for certain behaviors beyond simply not receiving a treat" - and that "dogs are quite capable of understanding....and this knowledge can lead to consistency & reliability in training results."
They describe themselves as "strong advocates of a positive approach to training" however, they also believe that "dogs can learn quickly and effectively with the help of well timed corrections in a program of overall obedience that is essentially positive".
Not quite the villains they are made out to be, are they?
Yes, I have this book - someone gave it to me for a Christmas present a long time ago - before anyone bites my head off for having bought it!  Edited by author Sat Jul 4, '09 3:28pm PST
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 3:46pm PST | | | | | | Hmmm....as far as the "alpha roll", the book states that "We no no longer recommend this technique, and strongly discourage its use to our clients." ... and..."there are other ways of dealing with problem behaviors that are much safer & in the long run, just as effective."
Also...."Owners who are physically or verbally domineering wind up with cringing, neurotic dogs." "Disciplinary techniques should not be applied haphazardly and for a slight misbehavior."
Not being really familiar with the Monks (no, I haven't read the book until just now), I find these statements to be quite interesting in the light of how they are described on this forum.... | | | | |
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Vance
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 3:55pm PST | | | | | | The Monks have since retracted their advocation of alpha rolling, but regardless, they are also the ones who started it. Taking it back does not alter that. It only makes it more mystifying that people still think alpha rolling is a good idea. | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 3:57pm PST | | | | | | No, Vance, it doesn't - however, as many on this forum state that they have "crossed over", i.e. changed their minds regarding the way they USED to train, it does indicate a change of heart in regards to a previous training "technique". | | | | |
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 4:15pm PST | | | | | | CAin, I think the video (and their recent television show) clearly indicate they have not crossed over.
As to their support of CC and clicker training, again, it just goes to show that there are trainers who use a clicker and there are clicker trainers. Using a clicker (or any other marker) does not make one a clicker trainer just as using food lures and praise does not make one an R+ based trainer. | | | | |
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Molly
Let's play! |
| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 4:27pm PST | | | | | | Of course dogs want to control their owners. They are like any other animal. To control things means resources are easier to obtain. Call it dominance or whatever you want but it's true of almost all animals I know of with the possible exception of fish, snakes, spiders and other less developed species. Even those species can be taught to some extent or another that certain behaviors will get them needed or wanted resources.
How they do it depends on the individual animal. Dogs are more social than other animals so they are more direct but I've seen cats who rule the house. In fact my tomcat is poking my arm as I type trying to get a scratch behind his ears.
What many owners do is give in to the dog at first then try to be more assertive when bad habits develop so the dog escalates the attempt to stay in control. The response is that the owners escalate in response out of a flawed idea that they have picked up by watching a couple half our TV shows without really understanding the principles of true leadership. This is something I've been sadly lacking with in dealing with my tomcat since I'm now typing with one hand and scratching with the other. 
I haven't seen a dog yet who will sit quietly when it's hungry with the attitude that, "I'm starving but I don't believe in controlling my owner so I'll sit patiently all day waiting for him to bring me my dinner dish". No what they will do is bark, jump, bug you constantly, act cute or whatever has worked in the past or what they think has worked.
I defy anyone to come take Molly for a day then tell me she isn't a bossy little imp always trying to get her way. I don't care if you don't call it dominance. I don't care what you call it. It's what any creature will do to get what they want.
The key to leadership is to show the dog (or tomcat) that polite acceptable behavior will get them more of what they want or need than bossy controlling behavior. Isn't that the essence of reward based training also? To say that dogs don't try to control their environment (which includes their owners if present) would mean that reward based training is a flawed concept. | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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Vance
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| | Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 4:48pm PST | | | | | | No, it means that reward based trainers don't consider that controlling behavior. Doing the thing that benefits you the most is very different than consciously manipulating others.
If I throw a bone out my window every day at 3:00, and a dog starts showing up every day at 3:00, is that controlling behavior? It's simply recognizing that X behavior will get you Y result. On the day that I don't throw a bone out my window at 3:oo, the dog may whine, bark a little, paw at my house, maybe even dig a hole in my yard because he's frustrated; because he has no dinner tonight. If, even without considering the dog at all, I had prepared bones late and chucked one out the window at 3:15 as the dog happened to be barking, I would have reinforced that if no bones are present at 3:00, bark and they will appear. The dog is not controlling me by barking, he has realized that if X does not lead to Y, Z might lead to Y.
If it's so clear that lower reptiles (and fish and crabs, BTW) are capable of making the same associates without being controlling, why is it so difficult to believe a higher mammal can NOT do it without alterior motivation?
When I wake up with a severed rabbit head in my bed and a scribbled note reading "From now on, dinner will consist of lightly seared steaks only or I publish that photo from that night - you know the one" signed with a paw print... Then I'll believe dogs are actively being controlling.Edited by author Sat Jul 4, '09 4:59pm PST
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