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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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 | | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 1:41pm PST | |  | |  | | Well, Stella, like I said, I don't really watch TV, and I don't go to Petsmart to get my supplies,and I don't go to a dog park so apparently I'm not in an environment where that sort of stuff is bandied about. Better for me, apparently - 
"And that is a perfect example of anthropomorphism. Prideful? How do you KNOW he is prideful? How do you know he does not want to do as asked?"
Well, I hate to state the obvious, but because he knows what is being asked, and he chooses not to do it. Simple as that. Granted, "prideful" is MY word - used to describe a brassy, bossy, willful, makes a clear choice to not comply dog. "Prideful" is much easier to type. Additionally, if you know your dog and understand dog body language, you know when he will "buck up" to you. Not reactive, not fear aggressive, not resource guarding - none of those things. Don't like "prideful"? Fine - but again, it is what it is. |  |  | |  |
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Torie
If you can roll- in the dirt, do- it! |
| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 1:49pm PST | | | | | | There are no doubt a lot of willful dogs, but I think a lot of training problems are the inability of the dog to generalize what they have learned well. Torie has an amazing heel in a predictable known environment. I can take her off-leash and she will stick at my heels thru the most complex series of turns, doubling around, changing speeds, etc. But out of that environment, not so much. I don't think she is so much willful as distracted and excited. After about a half mile of walking/running, she can concentrate to walking along nicely.
Dogs tend to need you to take the behavior they learned to a new situation, and sometimes the new situation is so different that the need to relearn the behavior.
To see this as dominance makes no sense. Is Torie "calm submissive" in a familar environment and then dominant if in an unfamilar enviroment. But after a half an hour she is calm submissive? That makes zero sense.
BTW, I dislike the calm submissive concept, however, I like calm assertive. Get that and package it. It's a good idea for any situation.
--des | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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Lupi
I'll do anything- for a treat! |
| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 2:06pm PST | | | | | | This is such an interesting discussion!
I completely agree that we "humanize" our dogs in such a way that we see traits or qualities that probably really aren't there. I'm not sure though. I mean, I really want to believe my dog "loves" me, but if I believe that, then must I also believe she can be vengeful or "prideful?"
I wish we could read their minds!
Lupi is not a very typical Dachshund. She actually listens relatively well, and often seems to seek ways to please me, but on occasion the Doxie brattiness does come out! I've called her stubborn, sneaky, and other names that perhaps don't accurately apply.
Upon consideration, it appears that she simply thinks things through when I've asked something of her. Like Asher said, at times the reward for not obeying is just too great. Technically, she's probably not consciously thinking "I'm going to be disobedient now" She just thinks "It's sunny and warm outside, so why would I want to come in?"
I honestly don't know if this indicates a lack of respect or something similar. I am completely sure it is not "dominance" since Lupi is one of the most submissive dogs I've ever met. Her default position when meeting other dogs is rolling on her back, and she jumps or cringes if she hears a raised voice. If I were to "alpha roll" her (which would be stupid, considering she rolls over constantly anyway) she would be frightened and completely distrustful of me.
So it is very interesting to me to discover why a submissive dog would deliberately disobey a well-known command. If Dominance theory were applied, wouldn't that be an impossibility? | | | | |
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Lupi
I'll do anything- for a treat! |
| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 7:56pm PST | | | | | | Oh well...at least she listens to me a whole lot better than my husband does. Come to think of it, treat training might work pretty well with him too! | | | | |
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Stella- "Blue"
Puttin' my freak- on!
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 8:11pm PST | | | | | | "Well, Stella, like I said, I don't really watch TV, and I don't go to Petsmart to get my supplies,and I don't go to a dog park so apparently I'm not in an environment where that sort of stuff is bandied about. Better for me, apparently " - Well, I hate to say it, yet maybe you ARE better off in the long run, but you and your real dogs are far removed from the real world. ETA (I say this because there are apparently a lot of idiots in my world... maybe it's my world that is surreal BOL)
"Males of any species are MUCH harder to train, don't you think? " - BOL - Think it's that faulty y chromosome or what?  Edited by author Fri Jul 3, '09 8:23pm PST
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