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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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 | | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 7:52am PST | |  | |  | | if you preach dominance, then for too many people a dogs perceived disobedience becomes too personal.
I think that statement pretty much sums up my major objection to dominance theory as a training philosophy.
If your dog pulls on the lead or jumps or chases skateboards or ignores you when being called, it is a training issue. It is our responsibility to teach the dog proper behavior. Even some major behavioral issues can be traced back to lack of training or socialization.
But Dominance Theory lets us blame the dog. Now, we don't have to be responsible, our dogs are dominant, that explains it, it's not our fault, it's just the dog trying to fill the alpha position, a natural response.
And that sets us up for conflict. We have to establish ourselves as the Alpha so our dogs will obey our commands.
When you let go of that, lack of compliance is not personal. If my dogs do not comply, it is probably because I have not trained the behavior well enough yet. My fault, not theirs. |  |  | |  |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 9:30am PST | | | | | | "The bottom line is that many people do feel dogs can be bossy, disrespectful, and exercise their wont over that of their handler."
Absolutely - of course not ALL dogs, but certain dogs of certain breeds are "pushy", to say the least. I am not a fan of alpha rolling - I think there are better ways to do things, plus I like my face where it is.  However, I do see the discipline provided by an older dog to a younger or more bratty dog - as in my previous example with Luba & Sambuca. Sambuca will start "stuff" with Luba - growling, and so on, & finally Luba gets tired of it - she wades into Sambuca teeth flashing, snarling - on top of Sambuca, who is by that time yelping, on her back, tail tucked. Luba is on top of her crushing her to the ground. When Sambuca caves in enough, Luba lets her up. Then it starts over in about oh, and hour or so.
Would that work between a brassy dog & it's handler? I wouldn't try it. | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 9:48am PST | | | | | | "If your dog pulls on the lead or jumps or chases skateboards or ignores you when being called, it is a training issue."
Yes, I certainly agree with this - however, I don't know any folks who perceive this to be dominant behavior. I'm sure there are many out there that do, but the people I know who are dominance theorists, so to speak, use this to describe a dog who flat out stares you in the eye, and says "No effing way am I gonna do what you ask, because I don't want to". Oh, and add in this example that the dog IS trained, knows what is being asked, and chooses not to comply. Is this dominance? Regardless of what it's called, it's a choice to not comply. | | | | |
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Dahlia
Wet and- Wild............ |
| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 9:53am PST | | | | | | I can relate to your story, Cain!
My folk's older GSD/Collie mix was trained not to harm the wild, undisciplined Terrier. The terrier (Ruff) got to be quite the bully to Eli, and would even chew holes in his leg.  Luckily, Eli was quite mellow, but every now & then, he'd had enough of this. He'd slowly get up, flatten Ruff, and hold him by the neck until Ruff finally laid very still. He'd then let him up, and go lay back down. He was four times Ruff's size, could have decimated him easily, but would just just hit the point every now & then to remind the other dog he COULD, if pushed too far.... | | | | |
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 10:10am PST | | | | | | Yes, I certainly agree with this - however, I don't know any folks who perceive this to be dominant behavior.
Have you WATCH The Dog Whisperer? He often attributes behaviors like this to dominance. Heck, he said a blind little Yorkie that wouldn't come out of his crate was being dominant and rolled the poor thing.
Oh, and add in this example that the dog IS trained, knows what is being asked, and chooses not to comply. Is this dominance? Regardless of what it's called, it's a choice to not comply.
I think I covered that:
When you let go of that, lack of compliance is not personal. If my dogs do not comply, it is probably because I have not trained the behavior well enough yet. My fault, not theirs. | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 10:20am PST | | | | | | "Have you WATCH The Dog Whisperer?"
Perhaps I should have underlined, put in italics, and bold letters the "I" in my last post - didn't I say something next about "I'm sure there are many people out there that do...." and so on. No need to be snarky, Asher - I'm describing people I know, and a certain type of situation with a dog. You're biting when you don't have to; I'm just giving different examples. Oh, and I have to disagree with you on the last example, however - it's nothing personal, no feelings hurt, no thought of a contest - it just is what it is. A choice.
No, I don't watch the Dog Whisperer - I don't really watch TV at all. I have seen maybe a couple of episodes, but I've not really paid too much attention to anything on TV - I'm usually out with the dogs. | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 11:10am PST | | | | | | Or maybe he's just that type of brassy, bossy, hard headed dog - he's prideful, he wants to do what he wants to do - and not what is being asked. This is not most dogs, but they ARE out there, and pridefulness is part of the personality. You just have to learn to work with it, not against it. | | | | |
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Stella- "Blue"
Puttin' my freak- on!
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 12:18pm PST | | | | | | 'however, I don't know any folks who perceive this to be dominant behavior. I'm sure there are many out there that do, but the people I know who are dominance theorists, so to speak, use this to describe a dog who flat out stares you in the eye, and says "No effing way am I gonna do what you ask, because I don't want to". "
Seriously??? I hear it all the friggin time! The dog you describe (stare you in the eye blah blah) is not the standard dog out there and not what most people I know own, yet I hear all the time (in scenarios you describe) "the dog is being dominant aggressive" Wonder where these people even heard that term in the first place. | | | | |
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