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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Czarka, CGC
Why walk when- you can run?
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 | | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 8:43am PST | |  | |  | | This has been an interesting thread! I am a GSD owner... and will be the first to confess that GSD people are happy to argue assorted breed issues... forever. I'm going to post a link to an essay on temperament in GSDs:
http://www.germandogtrainingcenter.com/what-is-temperament. php
What is interesting is that the author simply lists 'rank' drive as one of several drives in evaluating the working GSD. It's the complete package of drives that is important. From that perspective, I think the author correct. It ain't JUST dominance but how the temperament package causes dog to react to the rank drive component. I would agree that, just like temperament and so many of those other behavioral terms, we are very sloppy/non-specific/vague in what we mean by 'dominance'...
What I also find provocative in this article is that the author is arguing that temperament is genetically determined... that one does not change underlying temperament with training. However, one elicits specific behaviors by proper socialization and training within the constraints of the innate genetic programming.
This SEEMS right to me since each dog I've owned has had their own set of characteristics (they were not lumps of clay); but, while I love training, my actual experience IS limited to that handful of animals I've really known. |  |  | |  |
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Misha Sage
Timid Dogs Rock! |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 9:21am PST | | | | | | Torie I think you hit the nail on the head! 
The other issue I have with dominance theory (as applied by the dominance theory trainer, not any other definition of 'dominance'). Is that I'm supposed to act like a dog. I'm human, I'm pretty sure I can think of better ways to teach my dog than to discipline her like her mama (supposedly) would. If it's a crime to anthromorphise my dog and treat her like a human - then how come I'm supposed to do the reverse and act like a dog?
I think Asher already said something like that (and probably better...) but I'll be late for work if I go back and look. | | | | |
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M
Too Much Is- Never- Enough...I'm A- Giant! |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 12:55pm PST | | | | | | I think it can be a perspective thing. Certainly one of the most common of all shelter dumps is the untrained dog. That for me is of equal concern. Training concerns aren't just one thing ultimately. My number one concern in shelter/rescue is that people just TRAIN....that is the largest percentage of shelter dumps. You have a dog, it drives you crazy. Dump it. Or in rescue. You have a dog, you don't want to hear about how to deal with the problem....just wash your hands. The puppy coach person in me, conversely, feels strongly about PR trainers getting things started right. And then the breed person or working dog person in me feels something else entirely.
I know there are plenty of people who misapply dominance theory and have it bring problems into the lives of their dogs. And I agree with Taz that we as humans....much as our chimpanzee cousins....are rather into oppression, the act or overwhelming and the use of force. It can be a total knee jerk for many people. But of those who want to train and like to train, what percentage are those people in total? None of us know this. Surely, I know a number of people who are dominance theorists and handle their dogs humanely....their dogs are well adjusted, content and reliable. They to me would be far better to talk to those who misuse dominance theory, as these are people who say it does exist. Why are they, when not questioning of their own approaches, to listen to someone who insists it is not there? This is much what I go through with shelter placements. CM has been great for shelter dogs....I get a very solid percentage. He does inspire people to not feel intimidated as to the unknown quantities of the shelter dog. I will interview them and try to feel out their instincts, viewpoints and approaches, and oftentimes view them as sound. We recently had one very sweet female, pulled right before transport, who when in short term foster turned surprisingly a little resource agro towards other dogs, in particular guarding people and beds. I told Duncan not to fret, because this was a CM person who would not wierd out. And what he said was not that she was being "dominant," but that she was in a new place and trying to claim things of her own out of insecurity. Six weeks later, they were in harmony. Now IF I had an truly aggressive dog or a staunchly willful dog, THEN I don't think my interview would go as well. CM does not pin leash pullers. CM does not pin timid dogs. I think the pinning of dogs is something that ought be argued, but it is held up a little too frequently in these arguments as a staple of dominance training. I know people who have a dominance-based ideology who do not consider pinning in their approaches. I know people who do, but who would seldom if ever apply it. And yet they harbor the same perspectives the heavy handed users do and ultimately would be well primed to educate someone into letting go of incessant needs to be physically overwhelming without abandoning their own belief system. Sometimes, that is the best you can do.
If we are to argue pinning dogs, that is one thing. But what of dominance theory itself? Surely my dog does not view me as a competitor. But if our relationship is not well established and I stand in his way, he may well spare me no quarter....a bit of a concern with some breeds that I work with. Respect and response then becomes important. I think Chan's point was superb, and if I could expand on it just a little, it is easy to look at the dogs we live with, the dogs we bring in, and see no struggles. But they are well provided for, and very often they are well balanced in terms of being a group together. There are reasons I do not have a Kerry Blue in my house. He would assert too much, leaving my home not in accord. Tiller, as a Giant, is easier and will gladly will give way to the Cockers, but if only one bowl of food got put down a day and stomachs were rumbling.....would that be different? Or, if let's say Taz and Tiller the dogs were in the same room, would there be a fight? Probably. Dominance will come when there is a direct line of competition and an unlikelihood of yield. And when Taz earlier talked about an Akita propping.....is that dog being dominant with me? No. But if he is to be a safe and reliable member of the community, do I need a foundation in our training where when I say quit, he will? You betcha. I've gone through this with Tiller. Unlike an Akita, he will fight or play....he will let the dog make that choice by being as overbearing as possible and trying to false start them. This has been dealt with by introducing him to "cut it!" If he continues, I would walk into him...."back, back, back" and body block until he sat and gave me eye contact. Now I, in my own theory, view he in this mode is disconnecting from his handler focus. A dominance theorist would say he is being dominant. It's all apples and oranges, really. If he is to experience a full and thriving life, he needs some accord with me whereby he will cease when I feel he is pressing too hard. And that is not a landscape he could live in, that is not a freedom of life he could know, if I insisted to myself that political interactions do not occur. I know some R+/P- people....more experienced and clueless than those I see hear....who are keen to label a dog reactive when indeed he is simply being a bossy brat who needs to be brought under control. Plenty of dogs, too, who are labeled "dominant" when in fact they are scared out of their mind. Once again underscoring that there is no one training....narrowing perspectives narrows training scope.
The bottom line is that many people do feel dogs can be bossy, disrespectful, and exercise their wont over that of their handler. I think articles that challenge this via questioning whether or not dogs are dominant often end up preaching to the choir only. Part of me always feels they are in parts overstated, a luxury I have, I suppose, for a) not feeling my dog wants to be dominant OVER me, and b) for also working with certain breeds who can be dominant (and no, I do not consider a Giant Schnauzer dominant....only pushy and willful, and there is a difference there). I think arguing dominance-based approaches WITHOUT needing to suggest that dogs do not experience political strife in and amongst themselves would be more productive. Certainly, I have converted more than a few doing just that. | | | | |
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Torie
If you can roll- in the dirt, do- it! |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 5:08pm PST | | | | | | Misha, that's right, we aren't dogs. I don't really think they are fooled about this fact. The other thing is that dogs don't really act like wolves. There has been a lot of discussion about this. Dominance oriented trainers work is that they go from what they perceive to be how wolves act in the wild, and then they use what they perceive to be how dogs relate to other dogs, because dogs think of us as dogs. The whole basis they are working off of is faulty.
For instance, alpha rolls. Dogs do not generally roll each other, and if they would it be an extremely aggressive move. Dogs *initiate* rolls to another dog. Dogs use their mouths a lot, but they play with their mouths as much as "disciplining". By trying to copy a "bite" wiht your hand, you could just as well be bitten, but I am not sure it is "really" what dogs do.
CM is a special case I think. He has a certain "presence". I think he could do any techniques and they would work. Malcolm Gladwell (of "Blink"fame) talked about how he moves like a dancer. He says a few things I agree with. Exercise is really important, don't treat your dog like a human, give your dog boundaries so they know what to expect.
Read "The Other End of the Leash" (or at least the blog by that name).
--des | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 7:39pm PST | | | | | | "ANY training that works is valuable training."
Excellent, Tiller! 
"but again... what is getting lost is the point that the Average Joe Shmo is often being (mis)led by pop culture ideals that dominace equates physical overpowering...."
So what, in your opinion, would an effective solution be? How to change the thinking process of Joe Schmo? As you said in an earlier post, there will always be idiots out there. | | | | |
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Cain
"Strength and- Honor"
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| | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 8:09pm PST | | | | | | "For instance, alpha rolls. Dogs do not generally roll each other, and if they would it be an extremely aggressive move."
Have to disagree with you on this one - I've had many GSD imports, and worked with many more, as well as Malinois, Rotties, Dutchies, and some others - and have seen it with my own eyes more than frequently - in fact, I see it every day between Luba & Sambuca, and occasionally Chloe. When Sambuca gets on Luba's nerves, Luba disciplines. Same with Chloe. Nobody's stupid enough to challenge Cain - yet. It's all about establishing order, nothing more - or less. | | | | |
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Torie
If you can roll- in the dirt, do- it! |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 11:04pm PST | | | | | | Well Cain, I don't know, as I haven't seen a dog roll another except in aggressive dogs who have flipped Torie on her back. But I don't have much contact with Rotties, GSDs, etc. Torie has had most contact with herding (other Corgis, Collies, etc) and sporting breeds (labs, Goldens, etc).
--des | | | | |
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Gray Dawn- Treader
Don't Tread on- me
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| | Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 5:07am PST | | | | | | In the wild, when a wolf rolls over, if you'll notice he isn't forced to. The alpha just touches his nose, no forcing involved. More like an "omega roll".
Cookie sometimes appears to roll Treader over (I have seen no other dogs do this), but it done quickly and looks can be deceiving. I mean, looking very, very closely, it more appears as though Treader is the one rolling over to try to appease Cookie.
But, natural or not, I do not feel that "alpha" rolls need to be used by humans, because humans are humans and are able to get dogs to obey in much easier and friendlier ways than other dogs ever could.
Plus, IMO alpha rolls can make your dog either fear-aggressive towards you or too scared to do normal dog behaviors, as the article said.Edited by author Fri Jul 3, '09 5:20am PST
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