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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!


Interesting Article

   
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Beau

You smell- Mahvelous
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 11:44am PST 
it makes sense to me, or at least it does with my dog:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.ht m



any thoughts?
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Trigger

Tennis ball- OBSESSED!!!		 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 12:41pm PST 
Doesn't make a stitch of sense to me in relation to my dogs. I do believe in dominance "theories" and none of my boys are aggressive towards people in any way shape or form (Trigger can be aggressive in a reactive sense towards other dogs yes but that's not due to the training I've done with him...).
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Trigger

Tennis ball- OBSESSED!!!		 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 12:49pm PST 
To add, it comes across as propaganda-ish to me because of bits like this:

"In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment. Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used – but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, or watched unqualified ‘behaviourists’ recommending such techniques on TV.”

Umm...to the contrary...IT'S EXACTLY THEIR FAULT!!!!!!

NO tv trainers recommend attempting their methods be attempted by owners of dogs "at home." NO tv trainer does anything but recommend individual owners consult PROFESSIONAL help to evaluate and treat their dogs behavioral issues. Their are warnings up the wazoo, almost to the point of annoyance and if owners decide not to heed those then yes, any resulting behaviors ARE THEIR FAULT!!!!
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Stella- "Blue"

Puttin' my freak- on!
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 12:53pm PST 
Nice article. I do believe that proper training can be completed through correction based methods (though I don't think it is necessary), but not because of dominance. I think once people start applying those corrections based on the idea of dominance is when they take it too far and do (or should I say can) create fear, anxiety and learned helplessness. I am not saying that someone applies a correction as a general "positive punishment" approach (not an "I dominate you" approach) it can be effective, but when people start putting the idea of dominance behind it, and a dog does not comply (and they do not no any better as a handler) they apply it harder, calling the dog stubborn and dominant, and going on to alpha rolling or hanging their dogs, and with me aggressiveness themselves. This is one of my main reasons for "crossing over" and shunning the dominance concept of corrections based training (and corrections based in general) because it is too easy for people to cross that line and do mental harm to the animal in the long run.

I noticed Victoria Stillwell hasn't been mentioning "dominance" in quite a few of the last shows I watched (not that I see them regularly though) and was happy about that.
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3

Learning is- changing what we- do
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 1:07pm PST 
Nice article.

I think the idea of dominance is a meme. It is easy for us to grasp onto to explain away all those unwanted behaviors. Because we think in hierarchies, we project that behavior.

If one wants to see true hierarchies, the elephant seal embodies them. Those behaviors are just not there in dogs.

As to the idea that people do NOT use methods demoed on TV, there is only one celebrity trainer currently that offers those warnings and, in spite of them, one only has to search past threads on Dogster about him (or visit his group page) to find person after person who DOES employ those methods without consulting a professional.
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Taz - cgc tdi

869092		 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 1:27pm PST 
I have to agree with Tigger here. Dominate behaviors are pretty much all around us along, with hierarchy's. Even in the wolf pack and no I don't believe they have proven hierarchy's don't exist in the pack, actually all they have proven to me is it's just different then they originally thought. The rank is still there the difference is they now know that the parents are the one in charge, whoa big surprise. Now that said just because I know about dominance doesn't mean I don't believe in treating each behavior separately or choose to use more reward then correction. I'm a firm believer in redirection in modifying or changing an unwanted behavior, but in the end whether people like to admit it or not, just the very act of manipulating a dogs behavior is trying to control or dominate him.
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3

Learning is- changing what we- do
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 1:35pm PST 
So Mom and Dad are dominant? Wow, will they be surprised.

Interesting. I have never heard people referencing dominance in human family units.
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Taz - cgc tdi

869092		 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 1:39pm PST 
Well I would hope mom and dad are the controlling force in family, but I really wasn't referring to humans. Good point though. Their again it's how you control that makes you a good leader, dominance doesn't mean cruel, it just means controlling party or leader.
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Stella- "Blue"

Puttin' my freak- on!
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 3:36pm PST 
I like the UPenn article... I always found them to be non- propagandaish...

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=937717 22671&h=OTXkA&u=bCh9A&ref=nf

"Of the 140 surveys completed, the most frequently listed recommendation sources were “self” and “trainers.” Several confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43 percent), “growl at dog” (41 percent), “physically force the release of an item from a dog's mouth” (39 percent), “alpha roll”physically -- rolling the dog onto its back and holding it (31 percent), “stare at or stare down” (30 percent), “dominance down” —- physically forcing the dog down onto its side (29 percent) and “grab dog by jowls and shake” (26 percent) elicited an aggressive response from at least 25 percent of the dogs on which they were attempted. In addition, dogs brought to the hospital for aggressive behavior towards familiar people were more likely to respond aggressively to some confrontational techniques than dogs brought in for other behavioral reasons."

Now I know most of you trainers that use corrections based training on this site likely do not use many of the corrections used in the quote... but MANY MANY people do thinking it is ok based on what they see on TV.

Edited by author Tue Jun 30, '09 3:40pm PST

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Stella- "Blue"

Puttin' my freak- on!
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 30, '09 3:43pm PST 
For some reason that brings you to the same page... but the one I was TRYING to link to is found under "related articles" towards the bottom... titled "If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study"
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