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This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!
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Kitai
Chia Kitai!
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 | | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 1:10am PST | |  | |  | | I think Magnolia actually said chokes are safe when used correctly. Correctly being the key word and not that they are safe 100% of the time as many of the people who do use them, use them incorrectly.
I have not seen the GSD pup under the desk episode but I did see the bulldog episode you refer to in your post. I wouldn't have called his action a kick in the butt. More like a tap or a nudge with his foot. The difference between the two can be large. A full force kick can leave a bruise or broken bone, a nudge is not unlike a small tap that causes no physical injury but is used to gain the attention of the person, or dog in this case, being tapped.
Considering dogs think nothing of bulldozing into, pawing or smacking humans around with their paws I really don't see a big difference in using a small nudge of the foot to redirect their attention.
I would never condone kicking a dog or any type of animal no matter who the trainer may be, including Cesar.
As to whether or not this incident was a kick or a tap I'm just stating my perception which may very well be exclusive to my own point of view. |  |  | |  |
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Hudson
he's one in a- million!!!! |
| | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 3:45am PST | | | | | | we love cesar. i guess anyone who has had a willful or fearful dog can appreciate the show. i'm not sure why sooo many people think he's nothing special...he appears to have helped many families : ) | | | | |
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Lola
Is that cookie- for me? |
| | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 5:36am PST | | | | | | At my local PetSmart, my cousin had gotten into an older puppy class. The Pet Trainer there said that when the dog misbehaves, to grufflygrowl and use direct eye contact when correcting a dog.
GGgrrr, Sttoopp Tthhhaaattt Naatttyyy!!!!! Is the typed equivalent of what it sounds like...
Yeah, so that doesn't work. At All. lol Natty still goes on doing what he was doing, whatta nut.
There is a family suing Ceasar Milan for causing harm to their dog. An employee left a dog on a treadmill with some sort of choke collar ( note; not sure if chain or not ) and the family states that due to this treatment, Their vet states damages to the dogs throat plus a high vet bill for treating the dog. So far, this is the only problem the Milan Center has had come to light.
Good Dog U is okay, kinda fake though IMO. Usually the dog featured is already trained or being trained. I've only seen a few episodes and decided it dealt with basics like Heel, Sit, Down and such. Most problems like food aggression are usually just talk-show like, with a dog behaving ( laying, sitting or standing with tail wagging ) in the background. I dunno, like I've said I've only seen a few shows. | | | | |
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Rusty
~Olympic Super- Jumper~ |
| | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 7:17am PST | | | | | | It seems like a lot of people dislike him for doing one or two things they disapproved of. Every trainer (or rehabilitator as he calls himself) will have methods that someone will not like. It does not mean they are bad at what they do, they just have had different experiences on what will work.
I personally watch Caesar when I can and I take a lot of what he says. I also take ideas from other places. I think he helps a lot of families with their dog problems. I really like his background....he grew up on a farm where there were many dogs as pets, although not in our sense of the word pet (sleeping in beds, living on treats, etc.). They lived as dogs naturally live (except for being given food and shelter). He was able to witness the natural activities of a dog pack and all the interactions. He discusses in his book his shock when he first came to America of how dogs were treated and that he saw problems he never witnessed before.
I agree with his philosophy that a balanced dog is a happy dog, and that America's dogs do not in any way get enough exercise (for the most part). I know with Rusty even my hour a day walks are not ideal for him, if it were up to him he'd be walking all day.
One more thing, any person that can walk/rollerblade/run with over 6 dogs at a time, off leash, and have them all follow him as a leader has to have a way about him.
You don't have to like everything about his methods but take what you can, from him and from anywhere else you find tips. Something different will work for every family. No need to bash him for doing a few things you didn't like. | | | | |
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Lola
Is that cookie- for me? |
| | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 7:55am PST | | | [notify] |
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Shimmer
I can rise to- any standard- that you set. |
| | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 7:57am PST | | | [notify] |
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Vance
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| | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 8:11am PST | | | | | | Choke chains are never safe. Regardless of use. The study generally referanced was done in Germany, useing 100 dogs. 50 were trained with chokes, and 50 were trained with prong collars. The dogs were followed their entire life and autopsied after death. Of the 50 on chokes, 48 had damage to the neck. It was determined that 2 cases were caused by genetics. Of the 50 on a prong collar, 2 had damage, 1 of which was genetic.
If you just HAVE to jerk your dog around by his neck, at least choose something besides a choke. | | | | |
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Summer
Have a Nice Day! |
| | Barked: Wed Dec 6, '06 8:41am PST | | | | | | Following this thread with interest, didn't mean to butt in since my training methods are neither Cesar style nor reward based... But Rusty, I had to say something based on what you said - I agree - a balanced dog IS a happy dog... but using flooding methods when a dog is already terrified of something is NOT creating balance. In fact, I think it tips it over until the dog just shuts down. Not balanced. Just inertia. to me that's sad sad sad... Not to mention cruel. Balance needs confidence. Confidence can be grown by teaching the dog to do natural doggy things and allowing the dog to be a dog - you just need to learn how to redirect these particular doggy things to what's acceptable to how we as humans live.
Most of the time, though, from what I've seen, the dogs that Cesar features on the show have been allowed by very lax humans to get out of control. They don't know how to deal with dogs - they don't know how to redirect what dogs want to do into activities that will serve both the dog's and the human's agenda - most of us do it naturally - we take our dogs to play fetch, we take them on playdates and they chase each other around, we play tug with our fellas, we go on runs with them. I firmly believe if we do these more fun things with them, our dogs will view us not only as viable pack mates, but as pack "leaders" (I have a problem with that word - I think in wolf packs, leadership mostly serves a reproductive role, and every other aspect of pack behavior uses a healthy contribution from every pack member - not just dictated by the pack leader, but I know I will get flamed for that belief.)
Any other way - if we bully a dog into submission - the dog will see us as something to fear and avoid. If they "behave" around us, it's only because they can fear us so much that their natural instinct shuts down. Who's to say that instinct won't come up when we're not around. Or even if it doesn't, I say that's a pretty rum miserable existence - to live your whole life and feel like you cannot express your natural instinct to do anything. Er, quite like fascism really... | | | | |
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